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Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers
Magnum,
I just re-read my last post and it comes off a bit confrontational, thats not my intent. I simply believe that your experience with the escaping gas is not the norm and should not be considered in the brief amount of time you have to act on the threat. Gun guys are a dying breed, so I’d rather talk guns than argue.Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers
quote Cottonwood-Combat:The AD to which Magnum refers to sounds like a Sypathetic Discharge rather than an Accidental Discharge (which I personally believe is really a Negligent Discharge). It can happen in relation to a Startle Affect Discharge of the firearm as well. In the example given though, the officer was cuffing and fired his weapon, correct? This would have been due to a Sympathetic Reflex which in my experience has little to nothing to do with trigger pull poundage. It’s the body’s unilateral reflex to one side of the body doing something and the other follows suit. So as one hand was cinching a cuff (probably with an index finger) the index finger on the other bent in like fashion thus pressing the trigger. So I am really not following the change from single action to double action requirement by Agencies. I know I am off point a little here, but I want to better understand. Was this decision before the LE community better understood the different reasons for non-intentional discharges of a firearm? I’ve never really been a revolver shooter and so I am not too savy on the LE history with them.You are correct, I was trying to think of sympathetic reflex. It’s not that the decision was before they understood it, it is that under stress the likelyhood of the AD is very high or real while in SA mode. And yes I am getting off topic as well, but really the issue on that is trigger control, the finger should not have been on the trigger anyway..
Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers
quote Magnum:You are correct, I was trying to think of sympathetic reflex. It’s not that the decision was before they understood it, it is that under stress the likelyhood of the AD is very high or real while in SA mode. And yes I am getting off topic as well, but really the issue on that is trigger control, the finger should not have been on the trigger anyway..Agreed! Thanks for clearing that up for me…. I just wasn’t following.
Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers
quote Jeremy Stafford:Magnum,
I just re-read my last post and it comes off a bit confrontational, thats not my intent. I simply believe that your experience with the escaping gas is not the norm and should not be considered in the brief amount of time you have to act on the threat. Gun guys are a dying breed, so I’d rather talk guns than argue.Was not taken that way. We are discussing a very important issue and I understand where you are coming from. I am here to learn about Krav Maga and when things go against what I have always been taught, then questions will arise.
You are actually changing my mind some, so don’t stop now:):.
Makes me want to order some ballistic gel and do a test now….Of course I would have to buy a .460 to do it…
Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers
Okay, back on track… I have a question or so myself. When the pic’s you all are referring to circulated through our agency, it was supposedly a .454 revolver. I suppose like all other internet lore, it’s location specific and not fact specific. Anyway, since I have already established my current revolver ignorance here goes.
The cylinder of a wheel gun spins as the hammer is retracted to the cocked position whether SA or DA, correct?
If so, and the out of timing you all are referring to is with this action of the cylinder, correct?
Then the concern is with blow back as in the little article that came with the whole thumb pic thing, correct? Or is it with gas escaping the front of the cylinder? In which my following questions would probably be moot.
So then, the usual KM method with a revolver is to grab the cylinder for the disarm. Is it not possible to also use part of the grabbing hand as a sort of hamer block to prevent the discharge? I know it may not work every time, nothing can, but is it not a reasonable option? I know it would hurt, as I have dropped a hammer on my thumb (unloaded) in order to see what it would be like. I had a similar question with this technique a few years ago. I just don’t know enough about revolvers to know if this is acceptable or foolish.
Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers
What pictures and what python? Is there a link?
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GiantkillerRe: Gun Disarm – Revolvers
quote Cottonwood-Combat:The cylinder of a wheel gun spins as the hammer is retracted to the cocked position whether SA or DA, correct?Correct.
quote :Then the concern is with blow back as in the little article that came with the whole thumb pic thing, correct? Or is it with gas escaping the front of the cylinder? In which my following questions would probably be moot.The one I was referring to was gas escaping from the front of the cylinder. I am not familiar with blowback on a revolver so not sure what you are reffering to there.
quote :So then, the usual KM method with a revolver is to grab the cylinder for the disarm. Is it not possible to also use part of the grabbing hand as a sort of hamer block to prevent the discharge? I know it may not work every time, nothing can, but is it not a reasonable option? I know it would hurt, as I have dropped a hammer on my thumb (unloaded) in order to see what it would be like. I had a similar question with this technique a few years ago. I just don’t know enough about revolvers to know if this is acceptable or foolish.I think everyone has done that:):. If you can get you hand in there yes it will prevent it from firing. I think what Jeremy was saying may be true in this case as well. By trying to move your hand to place in the hammer you are adding more time to allow reaction.
The idea thing would be to do a force-on-force. If there is an Airsoft equivalent for a revolver (which I have not seen) and just see if you can redirect and grab the hammer before it falls.
Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers
quote Magnum:Correct.The one I was referring to was gas escaping from the front of the cylinder. I am not familiar with blowback on a revolver so not sure what you are reffering to there.
I think everyone has done that:):. If you can get you hand in there yes it will prevent it from firing. I think what Jeremy was saying may be true in this case as well. By trying to move your hand to place in the hammer you are adding more time to allow reaction.
The idea thing would be to do a force-on-force. If there is an Airsoft equivalent for a revolver (which I have not seen) and just see if you can redirect and grab the hammer before it falls.
Firstly, in regard to ‘blowback’ I was just trying to determine the source of the issue you all were discussing. Being revolver iliterate and all :dunno:; I wasn’t sure by the discussion, unless I missed something, if you all were referring to an identical problem to the one described with the photos or something else. Sorry about not being more clear on that. I wonder, instead of an air soft, what about a starter gun? We used to use them to proof K-9’s. Works well for that, but the dog isn’t grabbing the gun….
Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers
quote Giant Killer:What pictures and what python? Is there a link?________________
GiantkillerGK – In case you’re not just kidding: WARNING GRAPHIC!!!!
It shows a hand with the top portion of the thumb missing, for those who are weak stomached, you’ve been warned.
http://www.okshooters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24853
The link goes to a forum thread. The link for the pic’s is at the bottom of the first post on the thread.
BTW – This one shows it was supposedly a .460 and not a .454 Casull.
Jeremy – Sombody beat you to it; here’s a hot dog test: I’d still like to see the pot roast though!
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=665218 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGSExunzskgEnjoy!!
Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers
quote Cottonwood-Combat:Firstly, in regard to ‘blowback’ I was just trying to determine the source of the issue you all were discussing. Being revolver iliterate and all :dunno:; I wasn’t sure by the discussion, unless I missed something, if you all were referring to an identical problem to the one described with the photos or something else. Sorry about not being more clear on that. I wonder, instead of an air soft, what about a starter gun? We used to use them to proof K-9’s. Works well for that, but the dog isn’t grabbing the gun….No problem… I hesitated recommending any gun capable of firing something that could hurt someone for the fear of starting a discussion on the possiblity of shooting someone.
As long as proper percautions are taken you could even use a real revolver. I know I will get flamed for that, but properly done to ensure its not loaded and no ammo in the area at all it can be done. After all, I think the picture on the forum banner is using a real gun:)
Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers
quote Cottonwood-Combat:GK – In case you’re not just kidding: WARNING GRAPHIC!!!!It shows a hand with the top portion of the thumb missing, for those who are weak stomached, you’ve been warned.
http://www.okshooters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24853
The link goes to a forum thread. The link for the pic’s is at the bottom of the first post on the thread.
BTW – This one shows it was supposedly a .460 and not a .454 Casull.
Jeremy – Sombody beat you to it; here’s a hot dog test: I’d still like to see the pot roast though!
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=665218 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGSExunzskgEnjoy!!
I was going to post those as well… I am not sure about the hot dog. I think the pot roast has been proven to closely resemble the human skin structure. A hot dog is just compressed junk. But.. It does give you an idea of the pressures that can be generated.
I would love to see the pot roast as well. Hmmm… Maybe we should check the MythBusters site and see if they have anything on this:)
Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers
quote Jeremy Stafford:I can try it with a .500 and a pot roast. I’ll videotape it!Go for it. Would love to see it.
Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers
quote Magnum:No problem… I hesitated recommending any gun capable of firing something that could hurt someone for the fear of starting a discussion on the possiblity of shooting someone.As long as proper percautions are taken you could even use a real revolver. I know I will get flamed for that, but properly done to ensure its not loaded and no ammo in the area at all it can be done. After all, I think the picture on the forum banner is using a real gun:)
There is a company making an airsoft revolver that runs on green gas and has dummy type rounds that hold the plastic projectile via a rubber o ring in the front. The dummy round is hollow and allows the gas to move through via the empty primer pocket. I think the company name is hobbytron or hobbytech.
As far as using a real gun goes, I think I’d be more comfortable if it was a dedicated trainer with the firing pin removed. I just don’t know if I trust anybody else that much….LOL.
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