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Hi, on Sunday the 10th of February I attended a seminar and grading hosted by the Institute of Krav Maga (London)in Essex, UK ñ The seminar was taught by the global chief instructor Eyal Yanilov.
There were over 200 participants from all over the country and at different levels ñ P2-P5. The seminar lasted for about 2 hours.
I thought that the global instructor would give an interesting seminar ñ give us an insight that that we would not normally get at a regular class ñ That wasnít the case – There was nothing covered that would not be part of a regular class. One thing he spent about 30 minutes on was the ëescape from a chokeí, which personally I donít think would happen in reality (you know what I am talking about ñ where the attacker grabs the neck with out-stretched arms!). Although he did try to be humorous, when approached he wasnít as friendly! Following the ëtechniquesí he proceeded to demonstrate some stretching exercises and give some advice on body alignment! What this had to do with a reality-based self-defense seminar bewilders me!
The grading commenced after a lunch break ñ
Personally, I find that gradings are just a measure of how well you remember a set number of moves! The only martial arts that actually earn their belts are those practitioners of Judo and Brazilian Ju Jitsu ñ they have to fight for their belts!My partner and I were missing trivial things and were picked up on them. It seemed that the guy supervising our section was just showing off his style! I thought we were going to fail. Krav Maga is about getting out of a situation with a measure of skill and aggression ñ missing a footing or a certain strike (which would have complicated the escape) was being pedantic.
Although, they were trying to maintain a standard and some of those grading failed- I think there’s a great cannon between knowing material sufficient to pass a grading and knowing how to react in a real situation! While I was grading I was looking at others and I saw flimsy, half hearted efforts when executing moves.
I am not going to grade in KM again – I don’t see the point. I fear that KM is going the way of other martial arts – down the commercial route. There are a lot of superfluous techniques that have nothing to do with self defence and more to do with filling a syllabus to justify a grading. I think that the IKMF is concerned with making money and just like other like minded MA organisations it ëencouragesí its students to attend seminars and grading!
One of the selling points of KM for me was that it stands out from other MAs was that there were no belt systems and no grading – just practical SD.From what I saw last week, a lot people there were training towards a grading rather than training for what KM offers ñ a practical SD systemÖ..! Passing a grade doesnít necessarily say one is going to be effective in a real situation and I think if they measure their progress by how many strips they have they may be deluded into a false sense of securityÖ..
I was mixed with a few guys at one point and I barely tapped their groin guards and they were nearly on their knees ñ They obviously don’t strike in their training – in other words they donít train with a realistic mind set!KM is becoming popular and is being marketed as being one of the best self defence systems in the world ñ I have seen in several advertisements on KM websites mentioning of KM in movies and which movie star practice it ñ Is that what itís about? Just because Jennifer Lopez did it in ëEnoughí does that warrant the claim that it is a practical SD system? I have never seen a real life scenario where KM was used in an actual street attack.
I hope that KM doesnít develop a bad reputation for been a watered down non-reality based martial arts system!
So, why did I bother grading – well, I was interested in taking part in one of the training breaks abroad KM do – and one of the entry requirements are to be at a certain grade – After my experience of this seminar I don’t think I will waste my money and time doing that now!
Anyone else have a similar feeling towards KM?
Thanks,
Re: Is Krav Maga loosing its reputation?
Welcome to the forum!
There is NOT just 1 KM organization but several. As I understand Eyal’s is one organization and here KMWW is another, as well as others. Eyal is very well respected in KM circles.
I fail to see how KM would get watered down. The fact that JLO trained in it is old news. The fact many LE agencies and such use it IS a big deal. The fact that my center is training HIGH SCHOOL teachers to disarm attackers is a big deal.
It’ll be 4 years come March since I started. I see NOTHING on the horizon to indicate it’s going downhill. Between Fight Science, Fight Quest, Human Weapon, etc. the exposure has been nothing but positive.
Everyone is definitely entitled to their opinion, but I wouldn’t base it one seminar alone:wav:
Re: Is Krav Maga loosing its reputation?
That was one of my points – Eyal is a well known and respected figure in KM and I would expect to have come away with more than I did!
I still train in KM – and will continue to do so. It is a great system. Its principles are unique – However, I still believe that it is throwing in superfluous techniques to fill a syllabus and retain students. I do a mixture of MA – boxing, Muay Thai, ju Jitsu and KM – they all complement each other. I get what I can from each of them and have developed a good understanding of how they all mesh.
KM is big business nowadays…..
As for effective self defence techniques ñ simple is best. I have a nephew in the Royal Marines (who is currently posted in Afghanistan) ñ His close quarter combat training is very basic, but effective.
When I started KM (in the USA 2003) ñ we did basic techniques utilizing gross motor skills. Over the years I have noticed additions that are more flowery than effective!
My advice is to cross train – learn to kick from a Muay thai trainer, hit like a boxer, grapple like a ju jitsuka and develope street wise defence tatics from KM and other reality based martial arts such as Jim Wagners, Haganah, and others – –
Thanks for your welcome.
Regards,
Michael
Re: Is Krav Maga loosing its reputation?
I don’t think Km is losing any crediability. If anything, it’s become more accessible- which is a good thing. If it’s popular, so what? Good. But I think the major point made above is the truism that must be recognized beyond its popularity: law enforcement agencies and military think it’s effective enough to train it. That’s good enough for me. Is it the end all of self defense? Of course not. What system is? Will it bring a world of hurt to someone who is hellbent on causing you or your loved ones harm? Most definitely.
And I can see the cross training thing as a reality as well. But, for me, cross training would be less about bolstering supposed weaknesses inherent in the KM system, than just wanting learn to incorporate different styles into its fundamental philosophy for self defense.
Just my opinion, mind you. I’m still somewhat of a newbie, so take my words for what you will.Re: Is Krav Maga loosing its reputation?
Michael,
I see what you mean, but on the seminar, all I can say is perhaps Eyal had his own reasons for having the seminar the way he did. I dunno what to tell ya about the superfluous stuff. All I know is KM moves just hurt:D:
What I love about KM is anyone can train in it – whether you come from other disciplines or not, whether you’re in shape or not. If anyone had told me 4 years ago I could do this, I would’ve said you’re nuts. I guess the one who’s nuts is merofl2
Re: Is Krav Maga loosing its reputation?
So, did you pass the grading? Or maybe you didn’t and are P.O’d? Not sure what you are getting at, it’s one seminar, he can’t cover everything. There are specific SD moves in KM and to learn them you’ll have to start out slowly, do a number of repetitions, then speed it up as you get better. It makes sense to drill precision, since when you are under stress you will probably not perform as well, so it’s good to try to be as accurate as possible in training.
I attended several seminars taught by Eyal Yanilov and found them all to be very informative. I think he’s a great teacher. So, I don’t know what happened, wasn’t there, but maybe you were just expecting too much? If it was grading for beginners, then obviously there wouldn’t be any more advanced defenses, such as gun or knife. If you want to learn it all, you just got to stick with it for more than just one seminar.
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GiantkillerRe: Is Krav Maga loosing its reputation?
Did you want more than the normal class? Or did you get disappointed that there are too many techniques thrown in and its watered down? Arent these two different things?
Re: Is Krav Maga loosing its reputation?
I am definitely glad that about the exposure Krav is getting. Heck had it not been for Human Weapon I myself would never have known of it’s existence.
We are getting more and more people to come to classes here and I am hopeful this will increase the quality of training we get by possibly forcing more people to become instructors and maybe sometime opening up a school here committed to nothing but Krav Maga.
Re: Is Krav Maga loosing its reputation?
quote drmickey:That was one of my points – Eyal is a well known and respected figure in KM and I would expect to have come away with more than I did!I still train in KM – and will continue to do so. It is a great system. Its principles are unique – However, I still believe that it is throwing in superfluous techniques to fill a syllabus and retain students. I do a mixture of MA – boxing, Muay Thai, ju Jitsu and KM – they all complement each other. I get what I can from each of them and have developed a good understanding of how they all mesh.
KM is big business nowadays…..
As for effective self defence techniques ñ simple is best. I have a nephew in the Royal Marines (who is currently posted in Afghanistan) ñ His close quarter combat training is very basic, but effective.
When I started KM (in the USA 2003) ñ we did basic techniques utilizing gross motor skills. Over the years I have noticed additions that are more flowery than effective!
My advice is to cross train – learn to kick from a Muay thai trainer, hit like a boxer, grapple like a ju jitsuka and develope street wise defence tatics from KM and other reality based martial arts such as Jim Wagners, Haganah, and others – –
Thanks for your welcome.
Regards,
Michael
Most military units don’t spend much time on H2H, so of course it’s going to be basic. A level 2 students has way more training time in than an IDF soldier.
You can go to all these trainers and then try to piece it together or you can take krav. Most students don’t have the need or the time to go thru that. Who decides whats superflous? what may work for you, may not work for me. All students are judged by their personal ability. In all systems, including bjj and judo. My ability may not match yours ever. I get judged on my improvement. You on yours. Its always been subjective
So you kicked a guy in the cup and he gave you the technique. Their not your opponents. their your training partners. There to help you thru repition perfect the movements. Why? Because the cleaner your technique is in training the better your success when its for real
You bring up some interesting points right up to the point, where you recommended Jim Wagner. To people in the RBSD know…well lets just say your opinion lost all credibility. Tell us his background and no getting on a plane as an air marshall doesn’t constitute counter terrorist missions.
Good luck with your training
Re: Is Krav Maga loosing its reputation?
To answer one of the questions posed: yes I passed the grading – very few failed!
But KM is not about passing a grading ñ as I mentioned before: a lot of people there just trained for the grading ñ KM is meant to be an effective SD system not a ladder for belt progression. Also, to reiterate, I did the grading as proof of ëexperience and levelí, which is a prerequisite for some of the courses IKMF offer. I have been training in KM for 5 years now and I have covered most if not the entire IKMF syllabus, but without a stamp in my passport I would not be able to attend these courses.
Self defence is about awareness and common sense and when necessary crisp, simple defensive tactics ñ That is what KM is also about from my understanding ñ However, what I am seeing now are additions that I feel is just complicating the system. Keep it simple!
I hope KM doesnít go the way of other MA systems and become just money-making grading machines. Whatever happens, keep in mind what KM is aboutÖ. A proper self-defense system that offers practical toolsÖÖ. Train with an open mind and question everything. Sometimes whatís been deemed as an effective move might not necessarily be so for your body type or kineticsÖ.work it, adapt it or abandon it!
Re: Is Krav Maga loosing its reputation?
drmickey,
I see where you’re coming from now. Solid concerns, man. And it’s hard to knock someone’s concerns that’s been at KM for 5 years.Re: Is Krav Maga loosing its reputation?
The knock on Kenpo is that there are techniques added to the curriculum to make it a longer process to learn. The Tracy system is notorious for that. I am not sure if thats accurate but taking Ed Parker Kenpo thats what you hear.
My thoughts on Krav Maga or any system is take what is good and throw out what isnt…BUT…thats different for each person. Roundhouse kicks yto the head will be discarded by me…why? Because I just cannot do it. You may see it as an effective tool. KM or any style has no way of know what will work for each individual and most individuals dont know until they tried it.
Re: Is Krav Maga loosing its reputation?
quote drmickey:[COLOR=#444444] However, what I am seeing now are additions that I feel is just complicating the system. Keep it simple!So, what additions are you alluding to? Could you give some examples? Also what do you mean by “superfluous”? Do you mean the whole technique? Or just certain counters?
As for the grading, since they are a different organization, they may just want to make sure you know all the material they are teaching (there may be a few minor differences). Maybe you should consider taking a more advanced seminar next time, or even go on a “Training in Israel” trip, where there will much more time to go over advanced technique. If this was the equivalent of a yellow belt seminar and it was only two hours long, it’s really not that surprising that they would cover mostly chokes.
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GiantkillerRe: Is Krav Maga loosing its reputation?
Reading this thread with interest. A quick question out of curiosity if I may – what level did you test for Dr Mickey (e.g. P1, P2, P5)?
Re: Is Krav Maga loosing its reputation?
I graded for P2 – I trained to blue belt level in the US – moved to France and trained there for a bit – and back to the UK where I continued my training.
In our club we mix it up – we don’t adhere to a strict syllabus…. We do ‘real life’ scenarios where we practice preemptive striking. Power slaps. Then is a fight does ensue we go at it! We ware protective gear, body guard, head guard with grid, MMA-style gloves, shin guards and the essential groin guard.
Once, I knocked a guy out cold with a right hook. I wasn’t aiming for a KO, it just happened during our fight. Since then we have pulled our strikes back a bit. But we train hard and try making it as real as possible using verbal and physical assaults! It’s not for the faint hearted!
What we found is that when had to defend our self as we would in a street encounter, our defence came down to the simple gross motor movements. (Of course in training we do not experience the physiological responses one would feel when under threat – but we do pre-exhaust exercises to try and simulate that)
An example of a superfluous technique is the defenses from a straight punch – In the IKMF there are 3 – like a 380 block but the hand is rotated depending on the type of block one is doing – thumb facing upwards, thumb facing outwards vertically or the thumb facing inwards vertically – confusing enough to explain this let alone do it under pressure……. Boxers and Thai boxers defend against straight punches by getting out of the line of fire, keeping their guard up then counter striking….
There are additions to some of the gun defenses that I feel complicate and make the defence less efficacious.
We do the techniques – drill them – then test them under pressure. We can’t go out on the street picking fights or waiting to be held at gun point (no 2nd amendment: the right of the people to keep and bear arms – in the UK)……But we train with an open mind.
One thing I would say is question what you are learning – it’s not all effective.
There are ex-forces guys that teach SD here in the UK (Bob Spour and Mike Coup). Their philosophy is to keep it simple – hit first, hit fast and hit hard!
Don’t get me wrong – I am not saying KM is not a great SD system – it is….. But it is fast becoming an industry (especially with all this exposure). When a martial art becomes someone’s sole earnings the last thing they want is to loose students. If the syllabus consisted of, say, 10 moves people would get bored. That’s why there are lots of techniques added to the system – giving it more material to learn – Believe me, when under pressure, æ of what you learnt in class will not be recalled and you will resort to basics…..Just be aware of that.
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