- This topic has 130 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 18 years, 3 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
I am a level IV Krav student and Serrada Escrima instructor. I will agree that FMA’s are primarily weapons based. However, if you are learning from a good FMA instructor who has taken the time to listen to what his students want, the teacher should be able to teach what is one of the FMA’s claims to fame. The fact that stick, knife and empty hand tactics are the same for each. Your arms become your sticks, your blade is an extention of your arm etc… The argument \”I’m never going to have a stick handy\” is to a certain extent true. However, weapons are a great training tool for empty hand tactics. The \”fear factor\” and pain factor are indeed good teachers. If you can effectively defend against a swinging stick, a punch looks like it is moving at a snails pace. The FMA’s have some of the best eye-hand, hand-speed and flow drills on the planet.
Other things that the FMA’s focus on are
* work in zones or angles of attack. We do not care what kind of attack it is.
* attack the attacking weapon (defanging the snake). Destroy the attacking limb and it can no longer be used for attacking.
* Be very aggressive! If a conflict lasts more than 10sec. You are doing something wrong.
BTW – FMA’s have been proven in combat for quite a long time. Not just in sparring matches or contests. They have been used in the jungles of the Philipines, The streets of Boston, New York, all over the U.S. and by Navy Seals and SWAT teams all over the world.
Just a note, you shouldn’t be carrying a blade if you dont know how to quickly deploy and use it. Additionally you should know how to retain it.
So, with all due respect. The Dog bros. are not all FMA’s. We do not only fight with sticks and knives. It does not take years to learn how to defend yourself. However, it does take years to master anything. You can learn enough Krav in a few months to defend yourself but it too takes years to master.
I love Krav. I love the mindset. It is a very good fighting system but it is not the end all of martial arts. FMA’s combine well with almost any self-defense system or are just fine when used alone. Find a good teacher and find out for yourself.
Respectfully,
Brian
\”I don’t see this as any different than boxing, kickboxing, or MMA sparring. \”
The last I checked, those were all sports.
Modern Arnis
All this talk about Kali has me intrigued, so I did a search for a place near me that teaches the method. I found a site that mentioned Kali, but it turned out to be a place that offers \”Modern Arnis.\”
Are these similar systems? If so, is one better than the other? Just curious.
Thanks!
\”However, I feel the way you quickly discount a womanís sparring ability indicates a lack of understanding of real fighting.\”
La Revancha, you might be right. We tried to make fight class as real as possible, by sneaking up on the \”victim\” taking them to the ground simulating as much as possible an attempted abduction, rape etc. They were supposed to go ‘apeshit’ and get away. But if I had put in a full effort they could not have gotten away. That’s not to say they didn’t land punches and attempt to scratch out my eyes etc. I just defended. In a real assault I could have landed head shots that would put them out cold. This is what prompted me to think that a weapon is needed. An umbrella, mascara container, or flashlight can all be used against an assailant and no one would think twice about a woman walking out to her car with one of these items in hand.
I have to agree that pulling a folder takes a great deal of practice. We have learned to draw a balisong very quickly, but the real benefit of Kali is I don’t need the blade exposed. With the folder closed I can still be effective. Really, any object will afford me an advantage over an empty handed assailant. It doesn’t have to be an edged weapon or a 28\” stick.
With regards to sparring, it has to be controlled in the US. But in the Phillipines sparring was to the death up until it was outlawed in the 80’s – yes the 1980’s! I suspect that deeeep in the jungles it is still to the death.
In our training group we aim to make it as realistic as possible, just like you would in krav fight class. It’s not to the death, we wear full body coverings and helmets, but we go home with bruises, cuts and scrapes none the less. The only way to keep distance in a Kali fight is to keep moving; there is no manufactured range. If I can close the distance, I will. Once in close, I’ll try to land as many strikes as possible before we are separated by the instructor. It’s just as grueling as Krav fight class.
Krav is great. With it you learn to strike safely, think aggressively, fight intelligently and go home safely. I recommend it to everyone, but for the women that I know and care about, I also recommend weapons training. I can’t imagine how a 4’11\” teen girl could possibly stop a 6’4\” would be attacker if she were unarmed and surprised. She would need an equalizer and the skill to target its use efficiently. A bare fisted teen just doesn’t hit hard enough to disuade a determined attacker. Its far more likely that she’ll just make him mad. Weapons training teaches angles of attack, anatomical targets and develops lighting speed. It is a great add on to a solid base of Krav.
\”But if I had put in a full effort they could not have gotten away. That’s not to say they didn’t land punches and attempt to scratch out my eyes etc. I just defended. In a real assault I could have landed head shots that would put them out cold.\”
This ignores the true essence of self defense/self protection. Does anyone think that criminals are looking for a fight? They are looking for a victim, that’s why criminals tend to profile. Individuals are chosen because the assailant believes they will be an easy and compliant target. The element of surprise works both ways. If one understands how to employ the behavioral delivery system, attributes become less important, and the \”defender\” is able to lower the guard of the attacker, creating opportunities for pre-emptive strikes.
Do you think Mike Tyson raping Desiree Washington looked like Mike Tyson fighting Frank Bruno?
I actually like the idea of weapons sparring, for the reasons esiley mentioned. It’s probably not the kind of thing you want to teach to your level one students, but once you get into higher levels (4, 5) some weapon sparring can be beneficial.
We’ve done some knife fighting and stick fighting in level 5, trying to employ KM’s knife vs knife and stick vs stick principles against a person who is actually fighting back. Of course sparring differs from an actual self-defense situation, but all training is staged to a degree. Usually, when we train in regular class, the attacker offers no resistance, making it simple to do the defense. In sparring, at least you get some idea what it’s like to fight against a more mobile person. We do it with punches and kicks in fight class, so why not with weapons? If we never sparred and only learned to defend a punch we know is coming, how effective would we be in a fight? Same with weapons. You get used to seeing another person move, see how he holds the weapon, how he attacks, how you might defend, what works, what doesn’t… In a real fight you might only have a split second to react but having done some sparring might aid in helping you see the opening more quickly and react appropriately.
Thanks for all the replys! I have trained a few years in Muay Thai, and BJJ, and just started Kali this week, it employs empty hand as well as sticks, and knife. I am having fun training again, it seems complicated, but I am a newbie and its to be expected, however I can see how one I get better, and more comfortable, with some practice it will become an effective part of my martial arts arsenal. I am traing at the Kali Academy in Whittier, and the Guro there is named Bud Thompson, he is 76 years old and still very fast and amazing at this art.
Serrada, thanks for the more precise response. What you said really hit home in that-
1) Any martial arts is much better in a self-defense situation than no martial arts
2) Any martial arts will take years to master-even Krav (although I do believe it becomes \”effective\” MUCH earlier-based upon first-hand experience)
3) FMA have been proven in battle (I’m a history nerd, so I love the interplay of Spanish culture with native Filipino, etc.etc.)Tae Kwon Do and boxing, two very sport-oriented MA’s will probably do SOMETHING for someone in a self-defense situation, but that is not their forte. I’m learning more and more that it’s helpful to err on the side of generosity with other practitioners.
\”I can’t imagine how a 4’11\” teen girl could possibly stop a 6’4\” would be attacker if she were unarmed and surprised. She would need an equalizer and the skill to target its use efficiently. A bare fisted teen just doesn’t hit hard enough to disuade a determined attacker.\”
There is an article in LA Family magazine that can be found on the KMX site that tells the story of Mickenzie Smith, a 12 year old girl who fought off her attacker after he got her in his car. I think this illustrates Ryan’s point about attackers looking for a \”victim\” not someone who’ll fight back.
\”Usually, when we train in regular class, the attacker offers no resistance, making it simple to do the defense.\” – Really? No resistance, that kinda suprises me.
\”1) Any martial arts is much better in a self-defense situation than no martial arts
2) Any martial arts will take years to master-even Krav (although I do believe it becomes \”effective\” MUCH earlier-based upon first-hand experience)
3) FMA have been proven in battle (I’m a history nerd, so I love the interplay of Spanish culture with native Filipino, etc.etc.) \”I happen to disagree with most of this. #1 is simply not true. Many martial arts have very little, if any, real self defense applications, and therefore give students a false sense of security. Also, the multitudes of techniques taught in most martial arts (fine motor in most cases) also result in the student/victim freezing under pressure. There are virtually infinite numbers of cases (see Kurt’s example as a great one) where people with no training have survived attacks.
#2 is deceiving. You don’t have to \”master\” Krav Maga. It’s a principle-based system that is integrated. Most TMAs are the opposite of that.
#3 is irrelevant. I don’t care any more about how the Filipinos fought the Spaniards than I do about how knights slayed dragons.
Ryan, on the issue of #1, I believe that rises and falls on the shoulders of an instructor. In KM we preach that, more than anything, having the aggressive mindset is what will allow you to defend yourself, above and beyond perfect technique. Although, there was much more complex techniques in my TMA training, I was taught the same mindset. I started training in Krav with this mindset already. The don’t-quit-no-matter-how-much-it-hurts-because-this-is-life-or-death-stuff is taught in many TMA schools, and to that extent, they are making their students safer. If you compare the worst of TMA with the best of Krav, of course there’s no comparison. The same would be true if you compare the absolute worst of Krav with the best of TMA.
#2- I never said a person had to master it to be effective. Rather, I said the opposite, that you DIDN’T have to master it to effectively defend yourself. But #2 comment is only decieving if you assume that I am speaking as a TMA practitioner, not a Krav instructor. I have met people in LA who I would feel have \”mastered\” the system, and they all have been training intensely for many years. I have not met one Krav practitioner who has \”mastered\” the system in less than 3-4 years.
#3- I wasn’t talking about medieval warfare. I was talking about 20th century warfare. During the Spanish-American war, US Marines were dying left and right because native Filipinos were taking the Marines out. The Marines were armed with rifles, bayonets, sidearms and explosive devices. The Filipinos were armed with sticks, knives, and mechetes. It’s the reason that the US Military switched the standard officer’s sidearm from a .38 to a .45…because in close-quarters, Filipino natives were getting shot 3 and 4 times and still slicing the American soldiers up with a mechete because there wasn’t enough stopping power in the handgun. It’s one of the reasons the Philippines is not a terrority of the US, but an independant nation at this point.
Besides, I prefaced #3 with the fact that it was simply a preference/opinion.
In general, I was trying to show charity toward someone from a different discipline who had some valid points that I thought I could learn from. But of course there’s a reason why I choose to train and teach Krav instead of any of the other TMA’s I’ve done, including Filipino styles. I believe it to be the best among many good disciplines.
Your #1 has now changed. Either some training is better than none, or it depends. You indicated the former in your first post.
If your number 2 indicates that KM is unlike TMAs, what was the point of it? KM is not a TMA. You don’t have to wait until some mythical rank is achieved before you start learning application or \”the good stuff\”. My students walk away from every KM class with something that is useful to them TODAY–not something useful after 5000 reps and 7 belt levels.
Please explain to me how #3 is relevant to teaching a 45 year old accountant skills and tactics that will enhance the likelihood of them getting home safely at night.
Look, I’ve trained in Balintawak Arnis with a Grandmaster from Cebu City on MANY occasions. All of the fancy disarms, passes, drills, etc. are complete crap for real self defense. Is it fun? Yes, it is. Does it help develop some worthy attributes? Yes, it does. However, in the words of Grandmaster Bobby Tabaoda, \”In real fight, it’s just whack, whack.\”
I don’t think that the women who sign up for Krav Maga classes for self-defense reasons would be real happy to hear that the only thing they will be able to get from Krav is \”well, if someone attacks me I just wont make it easy\”. These women want to even the odds. I don’t blame them. I believe it takes a lot more time than a couple of months for a woman to be able to effectively defend herself against a much larger attacker. Sorry to say it, but Krav is not a quick fix. The skills (proper punching, kicking, elbows, mindset) are a good start, but these alone do not make a good fighter or even give one the skills to defend effectively. Women need to work reflexes, targeting and strategy. Sparring is important for women (and men). If you are not used to contact (hitting and being hit) the chanced of freezing up when you are struck are very high.
I also believe that a great equalizer for women is weapons. Blades, impact, whatever. Properly trained with them, they will have a better chance. Period.
I agree. Krav is great. It is a great start. Stick with it. Get beyond the basics, spar. Work hard at it and you will benefit.
Angel Cabales was about 5′ tall and 97lbs. He did not (could not) rely on muscle or gross motor skills to defend himself. So, he developed a system to do so (Cabales Serrada Escrima) that used principals, angles of attack, effective footwork and strategy, mindset and especially, weapons.
Most FMA’s are principal based. You can defend yourself effectively within months with hard work. Find a good teacher.
Generally, for a smaller person to defend themselves effectively, a lot more work is required. Find an instructor that is going to adjust whatever system you use, to you. Maintain an aggressive mindset and work hard.
For what it’s worth. Some FMA’s are taught as TMA’s some are not. Find and instructor that will teach you what you want to learn. A good instructor will be able to adjust to your particular need.
One size does not fit all.
john_mccollum, Arnis, Escrima and Kali all have similarities. All use weapons. You will find an overlap for each. Kali is the oldest of the styles and there are many different flavors of it as well. Modern Arnis is Remy Presas’ style. Very good stuff. I’m not sure where you are, but if you are in the Washington state area, look up Datu Kelly Worden. or check him out on the web. Amazing guy and a great teacher.
-Brian
Krav is great, but I dunno if a 5′, 95# krav blackbelt would be able to put off a determined dude the size/built of a linebacker without the aid of a big gun. Sad to say, but that’s life…size is a huge advantage (pardon the pun).
Still though, most perps ain’t all that determined and are looking for an easy victim.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
