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quote \”Serrada36\:I don’t think that the women who sign up for Krav Maga classes for self-defense reasons would be real happy to hear that the only thing they will be able to get from Krav is \”well, if someone attacks me I just wont make it easy\”.I’m not sure if I necessarily agree with that statement as a generality that applies to all (or even most) women. A couple of years ago, Vivian Cannon did an NPR interview and something she said really stuck with me. She said, \”My goal is to surprise anybody. I may not be able to win every fight I’m in, but they’re certainly going to be sorry they picked me.\” I liked it so much that I wrote it down in the front of my notebook so that I wouldn’t forget it. It’s absolutely absurd for me (5’1\” on a good day) to think that I could defeat any attacker or win every fight. What I *have* developed by taking Krav are tools that give me options, and those options make it more likely that I’ll come out alive and (hopefully) unhurt. Do I want to win every fight? Sure I do! Am I going to go into any fight with the attitude that I’m going to win? Damn right, I am! That having been said, a little dose of reality never hurt anyone – I expect WAY more from the women that come to class than the men. I expect them to work harder and be more aggressive and accept the fact that yes, they are likely to be outmatched if they are attacked. Reality sometimes sucks, and the reality is that you have to take advantage of everything that you’ve got.
quote \”Serrada36\:Generally, for a smaller person to defend themselves effectively, a lot more work is required. Find an instructor that is going to adjust whatever system you use, to you. Maintain an aggressive mindset and work hard.Truer words were never spoken. 🙂 When I first started Krav almost three years ago, I realized on day one that I was going to have to train twice as hard and twice as often as most of the people in my class to keep up. I completely lucked out getting an instructor that never gave up on me and was immune to any excuses of the \”that will never work for me because I’m not tall/strong enough\” nature.
Okay, I haven’t been a jerk for a good month now, streaks over.
What the hell is going on here? Since when have we started fighting 300 lb linebackers? First of all, some of your mindsets are way off.
\”Krav is great, but I dunno if a 5′, 95# krav blackbelt would be able to put off a determined dude the size/built of a linebacker without the aid of a big gun. Sad to say, but that’s life…\”
Before you even get into an altercation, the best rule of thumb is don’t be there. Don’t hang out where things have a high apptitude to go wrong,i.e. bars,clubs. Next you need situational/environmental awareness whenever your awake. If you notice a potential threat, you need to look for pre-contact cues, or use intuative acuity. If it escalates from there, you have to look at body language and read intentions. All else fails, you use the environment, and every tool at your disposal to go home safely.
And last time I checked, the most important tenant of Krav was get home safely. In essence, you do whatever you have to do at the time to neutralize the threat. If you need to shoot, stab, mame, maul, disfigure, cowtow, fake compliance, castrate, then that’s what you do.
Forget about Krav, FMA, TMA blackbelts, if you don’t understand that, regardless of the system your in, then you’ve already reached the victim mentality.And using that same mentality of defending against someone bigger, effects everyone in Krav, not just the 95 pounder. Because there is always someone bigger. That factor can’t be controlled, but others can. Like, most importantly being first to attack.
There are no magic pills, just mental and physical will to survive.
You’re setting up a false dichotomy. Unless your sole purpose in responding is to prove me wrong, you know as well as I do that there are more than just those two choices. Yes, some training is better than none. And yes, it does depend. The two are not mutually exclusive, and it is inconsistent to try to set up a scenario where they are.
In general, those who are exposed to fighting arts will do better at self-defense then those who are not. More specifically, this generalityis affected by factors, the primary difference in my opinion is the quality of instruction. Let me know if this phrasing is acceptable to you.
Your first criticism of my #2 point said this: \” You don’t have to \”master\” Krav Maga. It’s a principle-based system that is integrated. \” I agree. I never said you had to master Krav Maga. I do believe that, IFyou desire to master Krav Maga (understanding fully the application of kmX, LEO and military training, women’s self-defense for sexual assault situations, fitness certification, as well as full dynamics of multiple attackers, gun defenses, as well as emotional/psychological components of physical confrontation, verbal de-escalation) then yes, it would take years to master it. That has nothing to do with TMA’s. I was just stating my opinion. Let me know if this phrasing is acceptable to you, or if the relevency of my posts is something that you want to check over one at a time to make sure it fits your standard.
By the way, you said this \”You don’t have to wait until some mythical rank is achieved before you start learning application or \”the good stuff\”. My students walk away from every KM class with something that is useful to them TODAY–not something useful after 5000 reps and 7 belt levels. \”
I agree to this as well, and I teach every day to this effect. That’s why, with 15 years of TMA experience and 7 years of TMA instruction, I left it all, started over with Krav, and haven’t looked back.
You also said this \”Please explain to me how #3 is relevant to teaching a 45 year old accountant skills and tactics that will enhance the likelihood of them getting home safely at night.\” You are the first person to bring up a 45 year old accountant, and you’re questioning me about relevency?
All I said was that it was proven in battle. That you can’t dispute. History confirms it. You changed the subject halfway through the conversation from battle-testedness to self-defense application.
So, unless you want to hear my description of how knights killing dragons has reality-based self-defense application, I’m out of this conversation.
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quote \”Andre\:Okay, I haven’t been a jerk for a good month now, streaks over.Andre, one term short of passive-agressive. 8)
I agree that it would take a while and many repetitions to truly get proficient at Krav Maga. Just look at Darren or Amir demonstrate a defense and then watch a guy do it, who’s only been doing it for a couple of weeks. There’ll be a huge diffrence in the way the technique is performed. The new guy will look slower, a lot less clean. While what he knows may be enough to save his life if he is lucky – some people have no martial arts training at all and are still able to survive a violent confrontation – taking the time to truly learn how to do the defense correctly and to get really good at it will certainly improve his chances of survival should he ever need to use these skills. So, yes, KM will teach you something useful right away, but to get as good as you can possibly be at performing these techniques will take a lot more than just a few classes.
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quote \”CLFMak\:\”Why, because they get together in a park, with sticks, in a duel-type set-up, and beat the snot out of each other? How does that, in and of itself, make for a successful self-defense system?\”That doesn’t mean its an effective self defense system in and of itself (not exactly what I suggested), but it does tell you its an effective system for duel-type set up with weapons (mostly sticks, also knives, staves, garden hoses etc) possibly in a part or garage. You could argue that that also does not prove anything, but it does suggest it- why would you train in something that didn’t help you when the pressure was on and someone was trying to beat you with a weapon? If you read up on some of their history, it was started, at least in part, to pressure test martial arts techniques and training methods, basically MMA with weapons. They would have matches with kobudo guys with tonfas and other weapon arts- sword people with wooden swords, etc. They eventually arrived at a point where kali and krabi krabong were successful (effective) as far as technique and training method (and at some point jujutsu was added because sometimes it goes to the ground). You can always argue that any sort of fighting can’t be proven as an effective form of self defense without actual proof of its use in real self defense, but I believe that full contact matches, armed or unarmed, are fairly effective means of testing them. The blocking methods work against an unrehearsed full power committed swing from an opponent- its been shown in these matches. That’s just one example, but you can see what I mean.
No it doesnt
Ryan and Kurtuan,
I acknowlege and agree that most of the time criminals are looking for victims. But if we train to succeed under that assumption then we are training for the best case scenario. As martial artists we should train for worst case scenarios:
Here is a sample of \”over the top types\” from Eugene Sockut’s book Secrets of Street Survival Israeli Style
1) The professional criminal
2) The rank amateur
3) The psychopath
4) The drug addict
Others that seem unlikely here in the states but are listed in the book are:
1) State sponsored terrorists
2) Cult killings
The book is a collection of anecdotes with attendant lessons learned, from Sockut’s LEO, and military career. I recommend it for the stout of heart. Definitely not something I’d read as a bedtime story. Long and short of it: train for worst case and best case will come off much better.
This thread actually does give one hope…no ad-hominem attacks, no third-party marketing, a frank discussion. 🙂
Ryan – You are absolutely correct that boxing, kickboxing, and MMA are sports. The thing I have noticed is that every single one of our Krav Maga students and instructors who take competitive boxing, muay thai, and MMA matches get better at Krav Maga, build better fighting spirit, and are able to improvise and deal with pressure better during drills.
My point was this: weapon skills from a teaching and practice standpoint are not really different. The learning path is the same – Solo command and mastery, focused drills with a partner, and then sparring and scenarios against a resisting opponent…just like I have seen with Krav Maga, BJJ, and all the other good stuff.
Can you ever get to 100% of \”street\” or self-defense? Not without hurting yourself and training partners, no. Can you get pretty damn close? I think you can…and it’s our job to do so. There is always the element of consent in practice, whether it’s self-defense or sport.
I agree this isn’t the end-all be-all, but am more worried about no hard sparring than sportification.
Jeff, sorry, I thought we were talking about self defense (what forum is this?) 🙄
We could do this all day, so I’ll agree to disagree.
That’s the problem, Ryan.
I don’t think we disagree anywhere near as much as you initially interpreted. Let me say it one more time. I teach Krav Maga, and only Krav Maga. I know that as a TMA practitioner before doing Krav, I was better trained than someone with no training, but that was because I had a very good TMA instructor. I have met many poor TMA instructors who may be doing their students more harm than good, but I don’t have enough info to make that call in general.
I wanted to give Serrada and the other FMA guys a fair hearing before I assumed that they were only doing what other TMA guys were doing, and write it off completely.
tehillim144:1
That’s a nice resource, but that doesn’t change how you exposed yourself as a misogynist. While I do share interest about studying FMAs later on, I think you’ve done little to make them more of a user-friendly self-defense system. I endorse cross-training amongst my students, but if I found out a kali/judo/BJJ/MT instructor shared this POV, I would be reluctant to recommend them.
Man even my GF, who doesn’t train, was offended. Good luck spreading the good word of kali with that attitude 😉 .
\”Medicine can’t cure what I’ve got\”
That’s my new sig! Thanks, Dre!!
As I said, I’m done with the argument here–it’s not productive.
However, we’re having a training camp next month. Why don’t you come down and check it out? You cover the expenses; I’ll cover the camp fee. I think you’ll walk away with a different perspective (and if not, then you can come on here and tell everyone I’m a hack.) 😉
La Revancha and others from KMDC will be coming, so maybe you could even catch a ride. If you’re interested, e-mail me, and I’ll send you details.
(quote= Krav Maga God) \”No it doesnt\”
Not only did you not bother to explain your argument in any way, but you didn’t even identify what \”doesn’t\”. You mean the Dog Borther’s training methods aren’t effective system for weapon dueling, or that their method does not suggest usefulness in fighting, or that kali and krabi krabong were shown to be effective training methods of their sport, or that it doesn’t sometimes go to the ground, or that full contact matches show fairly effective means of testing a combat art, or that the blocking methods work against an unrehearsed swing? At least people like Ryan give very good arguments that are logical. I’d like to riposte with a \”yes it does\” and add a \”my dad can beat up your dad\”.
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