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\”I’ll have to ask my KM instructor about KM principles. I’ve only been taught KM thru techniques.\”
To me, this is disturbing. The essence of Krav Maga is the principles! The techniques are subordinate. I don’t even see how you can teach Krav Maga without teaching the principles. You might as well pick up a book or video.
Years ago, Darren talked a little about the principles of KM on the forum. I don’t recall it word for word, but the jist of it was that Darren relied heavily on the principles of KM to help with his learning and teaching especially early on. He said that Imi would come to train him here in the states, or he would go back to Israel, but during the time between those periods, when a question or scenario presented itself that he hadn’t seen before, he could usually figure out the KM defense because he knew the principles. Then, when he would see Imi or another KM trainer, he would ask about his response and would usually be spot on. I’m not much for starting posts here, but someone should start one on the basic principles of Krav Maga…. it may be really helpful for the newer students especially. The first principle: Don’t get hurt.
I just got my answer regarding KM principles from one of my instructors. I didn’t get the run down of every principle, but I did get a basic understanding of what they are. I believe we have a misunderstanding of \”principles\”. The principles I speak of regarding Serrada are broken down by physics, not mindset. If you can understand the simple principles of science, you can create your own techniques that work for you. And if you are being taught a technique that doesn’t seem to be working for you, apply the principles to modify that same technique so that it does work for you. I apologize for the misunderstanding. As far as being taught KM by principles… I have probably been taught these things, but I understood them to be a way to help with my mindset and fighting spirit rather than helping me to create my own techniques.
Kilap, I don’t get your distinctions.
Principles of Krav Maga techniques include things like always first addressing the immediate danger with a modification of an instinctive movement and a simultaneous (or as nearly as possible) counter-attack.
I’m sorry, but Krav Maga is a principle-based system. If a big part of your training doesn’t focus on them, you’re not doing Krav Maga.
Well, I’ve had a chance to try out some of the Kali Tudo stuff with a sparring partner. Having practiced it in this format, I have some additional comments to make: before I said that it details the footwork and angles you see in the stickfighting and how it applies to MMA. Although that still applies, what I really got out of it was Marc Denny’s methods of finding ways to apply the kali to MMA-kali stuff is often taught in a compliant TMA style, but is useful if you can bridge the gap between that and live training. The idea is to find the angles and positions where the kali techniques will work, and how to drill those angles in a realistic way. I liked it because I come from a Chinese martial arts background (choy li fut and tai chi) and lots of the big looping strikes, sweeps, and leg manipulations you see in choy li fut are hard to apply in sparring, but when you start creating the right angles they work. So, it gets more into the practical drills and the when rather than the how of applying techniques.
On a side note, it may be a little misleading, as there’s some back and forth between self defense and ring fighting. I liked the connection, but at the same time its not quite what’s advertized. For example, there’s two takedowns where he grabs the guy by the groin (as he puts it \”grabbing him by the small head and dumping him on his big head\”). There’s some other groin strikes demonstrated, and he talks about the merit of savate kicks because with a street shoe on its very effective. Good to know, but not really about the cage.After speaking with a few KM instructors, here is basically what I got… in layman’s terms:
KM principles teach you to be aggressive. If you are being attacked, your primary concern is to address the immediate danger. If there is a weapon, control the weapon. These principles condition you to never give up… keep fighting until you can’t fight anymore or the other person has been completely disabled.There’s nothing wrong with these principles. In fact, Serrada has similar principles. But when applying these KM principles, they don’t exactly help me to figure out HOW to address the immediate danger. I know it’s something I have to do but I HOW do I do it? These are the techniques I remember being taught in class. For example, when I was taught to defend against a choke from behind, I was taught one and only one technique. Every class I’ve seen when this defense is taught, it’s always the same technique. Modifying the technique in any way has not been emphasized. If I do anything that is different from what I was taught, even if it worked, it is wrong.
As I said before, Serrada has similar basic principles as KM. The difference or \”distinction\” I was trying to make is that Serrada breaks these principles down even further and uses a more scientific approach to help you figure out HOW to accomplish the basic principle. Serrada uses concepts such as shearing, leverage, adhesion and seating. When you understand how these things work, you can use them to create your own techniques when defending against different attacks. Sometimes in class we have what we call \”free play\”. During this time, your partner attacks you any way they want to and you defend yourself using these concepts. There are also times when we are given the same attack and we have to defend a different way each time, using the concepts and principles. These concepts and principles give the person more tools in their toolbox to defend themselves in a situation.
The KM instructors I train with seem to be able to understand how the two systems compliment each other. The systems are still taught differently and are different themselves, but when used together a person can become a highly effective fighter.
If you’d like to see Serrada in a video, I can’t recommend a good one. Sorry. Maybe I can get my class to do a demo video for you guys so you can understand Serrada a little better.
Re:
quote \”kilap36\:As I said before, Serrada has similar basic principles as KM. The difference or \”distinction\” I was trying to make is that Serrada breaks these principles down even further and uses a more scientific approach to help you figure out HOW to accomplish the basic principle. Serrada uses concepts such as shearing, leverage, adhesion and seating.Kilap, not to be too argumentative, but when I mentioned that FMA were relatively complex and took more time to use effectively, you disagreed. Yet your distinction says exactly that. How can you have a more scientific breakdown without necessarily becoming more complex?
And even so, what’s the problem with simply admitting that it’s not something that is easily picked up immediately? I play both the piano and the guitar. If someone wants to get started on recognizable pop music immediately, I’ll teach them a bit of guitar. If someone wants to understand the intricacies of 500 years of music history, mixed with pop music, mixed with orchestration and adaptation…then they learn piano.
But one cannot say that a piano is inherently more musical than a guitar. one can only say it suits their purpose better (fast, effective learning or lifetime dedication without regard to complexity as a hindrance).
I have never trained in Serrada, don’t know anything about it, but from what kllap is saying it doesn’t necessarily sound to me as if it would be hard to pick up because of the principles involved. It seems as if you might just have more choices. As long as you can try out the different choices, figure out what works best for you in a certain situation and then move on to the next exercise, I don’t know why it would make it that much harder to learn.
\”It seems as if you might just have more choices. As long as you can try out the different choices, figure out what works best for you in a certain situation and then move on to the next exercise, I don’t know why it would make it that much harder to learn.\”
Harder to learn isn’t necessarily the issue (though I think that’s valid also)–harder to perform under stress is the issue.
\”they don’t exactly help me to figure out HOW to address the immediate danger.\”
If you’re being choked, you don’t need a system to \”tell\” you what the danger is. Also, Krav Maga is not simply \”be aggressive, eliminate the threat\”:
–avoid injury (don’t get hurt)
–defend and attack simultaneously or as quickly as possible
–use the body’s natural reflexes/instincts
–attack vulnerable areas
–use the environment
–design drills to pressure test techniques/tactics (and develop fighting spirit)
–techniques are integratedOk, I am going to try to clarify some of the questions about Serrada. Some of this I have written about here previously but I will go over that information again.
Serrada is a system based on the following:
* It is a weapons ìbasedî system. This is due to the fact when originally taught, it is assumed that the practitioner has few skills and the weapon is introduced as an equalizer for the novice. Also, the early introduction of weapons work substantially reduces the learning curve and quickly increases eye-hand coordination. The progression would be, stick, knife and then empty hand. The way the system is commonly taught now or at least the way I teach and I was taught is to introduce all three simultaneously. The translation is nearly seamless and variances are slight.
* We defend against zones of attack. We do not care what type of attack it is. A downward strike is dealt with the same way as a right straight punch.
* Attack the attacking weapon and destroy it. (defanging the snake)
* Most defenses can be used against most attacks regardless of what side the strike is thrown from. This means fewer ìtechniquesî to learn. All are based on instinctive reaction.
* It is a system based on instinctive reaction.
* Strike preemptively if possible and necessary
* Simultaneously defend and attack
* Escalate force as necessary
* Superior power and strength are not necessary. They are helpful in any self-defense but not necessary in Serrada. We use concepts that can be used universally to quickly learn ìcombativesî. The same principal that is used in an arm-bar is used for an arm-break, a foot-sweep takedown, double leg takedown etc… Teach a man to fish etcÖ Teach someone concepts and you teach them to create their own technique.
* Use drills that teach eye-hand coordination and that are unscripted so that you learn to react to unpredictable attacks.
To address some other issues:
Are the FMAís relative to self-defense needs in the North America? Absolutely! Concepts, physics and eye-hand coordination never go out of ìstyleî.
Is it hard to learn, complex? A student can have a deployable skill within 3 to six months. It does use gross motor skills, not necessarily all the same ones used in Krav, It is sophisticated, but not complex. Kind of like an I-pod. Easy to use but very well thought out and sophisticated.
Finally, is Kali effective self-defense? YES. Find a good teacher take classes, have an open mind and enjoy your new skills.
We are not trying to disparage Krav but merely trying to say that there are other effective systems out there as well. In fact, the FMAís combine well with most systems. If you believe that Krav is the only way, enjoy life in the vacuum. You are doing yourself a disservice.
Before I stir up a hornets nest, I want to say thanks to Ryan.
You pointed out that there could be a \”manufactured range\” during a \”duel\”. So with that in mind I re-designed my offensive stance and plan for closing the distance. It was highly effective. I was able to land about 4 out of 5 strikes in each match and my opponent was completely unable to counter or defend. Then I did something I didn’t really believe was possible even though I’ve learned umpteen disarms from both krav and kali. I’ve always felt that in a real combat situation when sticks, kicks and punches are flying there would be no way to execute a disarm. However, in one of my matches, I closed the distance, disarmed my opponent and landed 3 strikes to the head before the instructor could scream stop! So though in the past I’ve made you madder than I ever intended — a great big thanks.
I want to throw in another .02 on FMA. Although I don’t practice serrada, (I study LESKAS), I want to try my hand at clarifying what Kilap is trying to say.
The krav principles are the foundation for designing krav techniques. In our krav classes the instructor always emphasized the science behind techniques such as front kick to the knee. i.e. it takes x number of psi to hyperextend the knee, so attack it this way. Another good example of krav making use of math/science is the 360 defense. The beauty of the 360 defense is that there is a range that you can personalize and adapt to the type of attack you are confronted with.
FMA provides scientific approaches like the 360 defense. You are taught basic strikes and blocks then shown why movement in this way is the core of your offense and defense. But, the movement is open ended so that you can personalize it (after you can execute it according to the instructor’s specifications 😉 ). The principles are based on physics, geometry, and anatomy. So for example, I learn to strike my opponent’s knee in rapid succession despite my starting point. An understanding of arcs and lines through space and anatomical levers and pulleys enable me to adapt my motion to strike that knee despite the origin of my response.
However, you don’t need to be a mathematician any more than the proverbial granny who knitted spectacularly. She used physics and math without realizing what she was doing. She learned a handful of techniques from her mom that she could knit in infinite combinations.
Of the list of krav principles that Ryan provided the ones below apply in FMA as well.
–avoid injury (don’t get hurt)
–defend and attack simultaneously or as quickly as possible
–attack vulnerable areas
–use the environment
–design drills to pressure test techniques/tactics (and develop fighting spirit)Item one –avoid injury (don’t get hurt) is one reason the use of inanimate objects as weapons is emphasized. I’m less likely to get a bruise if I block your punch by striking your moving limb with an inanimate object.
I would change item 3 to read –use the body’s natural motion and here is where the physics, geometry and anatomy come in.
When I studied Krav I was not exposed to \”techniques are integrated.\” So I cannot say if it applies or not.
The rest fit in as they stand.
Tehillim, you never made me mad, my friend. Nothing wrong with a spirited debate. 😉
I’m glad I was able to help.
ìAnd even so, what’s the problem with simply admitting that it’s not something that is easily picked up immediately?î
The problem with this would be that I would be admitting to something simply isnít true. Iím not going thru all of these explanations for my health. I am just trying to clarify some of the misconceptions about FMAs to the best of my ability. If I were to say that Krav is not something that is easily picked up immediately, would you admit to that? No, of course you wouldnít. You would be doing your best to explain why you feel that Krav IS easy and quick to learn. So why then should I ìsimply admit that itís not something that is easily picked up immediatelyî?
I am glad that Giantkiller is able to understand what I am trying to say. The system does give you more choices and allows you to figure out what is comfortable and more instinctual for you to use. Ryan seems to think that it may not be harder to learn, but harder to apply under stress. If you learn something that is more instinctual and comfortable for you to use, you wonít have to think about it when youíre under stress. Learning to use your instincts to create moves that are comfortable and effective is easy and quick to learn. Once youíve learned some of the principles of Serrada, they become so much a part of your instincts that when you are attacked, you act rather than react. And with all the tools that Serrada gives you, when faced with a straight punch (for example), youíll discover so many options on how to defend this one punch. In fact, if faced with this same punch over and over again, you may find yourself defending against it differently each time. Thatís the beauty of the principles of Serrada: the tools given you provide you with endless options on how to defend yourself against any kind of attack.
Thank you Serrada36 and Tehillim 144:1 for helping to explain FMAs. You both did an excellent job at explaining the systemÖ probably better than what I was trying to say. Iím glad to finally hear there are others out there on this forum who are open-minded to understanding other systems in addition to KM. And before anyone makes the comment… I DO know what forum this is!!
OhÖ and let me address the ìcomplexî comment.
ìHow can you have a more scientific break down without necessarily becoming more complex?î
Merriam-Websterís Dictionary:
Break down: ìa: to divide into parts or categories b: to separate (as a chemical compound) into simpler substancesîSo, after reading that definition, I ask youÖ how can something that has been broken down ìinto simpler substancesî become more complex?
If you canít understand that, then letís try this:
A sentence (basic principle) is a complex combination of words. This group of words (techniques) can be further broken down into groups of letters. The letters (scientific principles/physics) are words in their simplest form. From this form, they can be arranged and rearranged to create more words (techniques). Once the words (techniques) are formed, they too can be arranged and rearranged to create sentences (basic principles).
Now apply this same concept to Serrada. Using SIMPLE physics concepts and principles, we can create our own techniques that are comfortable and instinctual to use. And by combining these customized techniques, we accomplish a basic principle.
I have more examples in case that one wasn’t easy to understand.
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