Kick Defenses

[nixxon]

I just started doing the kick defenses in level 2. Is anyone else less than pleased about this technique? They seem so ineffective. The stabbing defense seems to leave you SO open and a shin-to-shin contact for a mid level defense seems like it could incapacitate you just as much as your attacker. I’m of the idealology that moving in to neutralize the power of the kick (much like stick defense) or just completely getting out of the way would be the best.

Maybe I’m way off but it just doesn’t seem practical. However actually getting kicked is probably an unlikely way to be attacked in the first place so I’m sure not many people are too concerned about it anyways.

Just wondering on everyones thoughts and if anyone knows a way to do it better.

[vwr32]

Re: Kick Defenses

I’m thinking on paper it probably seems like a better approach to simply move in or move out to avoid it. In practice tho, those kicks come fast. You might only get a blur in your peripheral vision and know a kick is incoming, the goal is to absorb the force as quickly as possible. In shin on shin, I think the goal is to meet your upper shin with their lower. Not a particularly pleasant experience for either, but less so for the attacker.

If I see a kick coming and can move in or move out, that’s what I’ll do. If all I have time to do is absorb it, I need to train that too.

[giant-killer]

Re: Kick Defenses

I’ve actually been thinking about this, especially because I’m smaller and might not be able to take shin against shin contact if I’m dealing with a much larger attacker, no matter where his shin meets mine. The idea is to absorb the shock, let your leg give a little as you are making the defense, then push back out, but I’m still not sure how well it would work against a much bigger guy in real life.

If I had any time at all, I’d prefer to move out of the way, with less time, I might prefer the absorption technique (leg stays on the ground and you tighten your muscle as the kick hits). I think I could take a kick to the muscle better than to the shin, although if the guy is REALLY big and a good kicker to boot, maybe that won’t work either (if the guy knows what he’s doing, he can just lightly place his leg on yours with all of his weight behind it and it hurts, even without any velocity, so even worse if he actually kicks hard).

So, I don’t know. If you are fighting someone roughly your own size, with some training and the adrenaline pumping, you could probably make one shin vs shin defense and still keep on going. Same for absorbing with the muscle. If the person is much bigger, moving in or out may be preferable, yet it may not always be possible.

_________________
Giantkiller

[fianchettoer]

Re: Kick Defenses

I see what you’re saying, Nixxon, but I can tell you that it’s much better to defend against a leg with a leg and against an arm with an arm. In Kempo, I was taught to do a downward block with my arm to block a kick. Well, that’s ok when they have pads, but in an actual situation, the kick will probably break your arm. (Plus Kempo instructors teach everyone to pull their kicks and punches, so it’s pretty useless in that sense.) I’d do exactly what you said…I’d get out of reach. If you do get caught off guard, though, definitely do a leg (preferably lower knee) to block a kick. You can cross your arms to block knees when in a clinch, but that’s what we do in BJJ, which is different than Krav.

[satilan]

Re: Kick Defenses

quote vwr32:

I’m thinking on paper it probably seems like a better approach to simply move in or move out to avoid it. In practice tho, those kicks come fast. You might only get a blur in your peripheral vision and know a kick is incoming.

quote vwr32:

If I see a kick coming and can move in or move out, that’s what I’ll do. If all I have time to do is absorb it, I need to train that too.

vwr32 is right, there are many levels of defence against kicks in KM. What you do depends on how much time you have to employ the defence. While, generally speaking, you would use your arms for attacks that are aimed to above your stomach and your leg for attacks lower than your stomach. This is my way of thinking about the different times I have defending and what I do in every case:
– You have a very long time: move away -or- strike your enemy before the kick gets too close (timing) – preferebly on the inside of his kicking leg or even better, get in, close range and attack his open areas (face, body, groin).
– You have some time: “shin to shin” leg defence -or- middle defence with the leg against groin kicks (the shin to shin defence is not exactly shin to shin!)
– You have almost no time to react: you start doing the shin defence but the kick strikes? No problem! the beginning of the shin defence moves your leg and thigh to a good abosrpion position (if you do it right) in other words, even you don’t have enough time, you’re still better trying to do the defence.

quote vwr32:

the goal is to absorb the force as quickly as possible. In shin on shin, I think the goal is to meet your upper shin with their lower. Not a particularly pleasant experience for either, but less so for the attacker.

I think it’s more your shin with the top of the foot (where the foot connects to the shin) of your adversary… This would not hurt you at all and will destroy your enemy’s foot (if you were ever defended against like this, you know what I’m talking about). However, it get’s kinda tricky to pull off… You might miss your opponent’s kick altogether and end up raising your foot and getting kicked in the other one or in the groin. Not good!

[dirtyhippieute]

Re: Kick Defenses

I had similar questions when I first learned kick defenses. Upon further investigation, here’s what I found.

The stabbing defense: Don’t think of this as a primary defense. This is something you keep in the back of your mind for when you’re already screwed. If some dude comes up to kick you and you’re standing in a neutral or fight stance, there are lots of other things you can do, but if you’ve already been doubled over and are about to take a foot to the face the stabbing defense beats the hell out of the dental defense (However, in my case, I have some seriously sharp teeth, just ask my instructor. Maybe I could bite their foot off).

Shin to shin: The way it was explained to me, you’re trying to catch their anterior ankle with your shin. Not shin on shin. Kind of like the 360 defense where you are trying for their wrist not ulna to ulna.

Also, the more I looked around, this is how it is done in most places. Obviously you want to try to step in to stuff the kick but you also want to get something up there to block it so it doesn’t slip through and scramble your internal organs.

Here’s an example somebody posted for me…
http://www.prokarateweekly.com/images/Buakaw%20Shish.JPG
Hellish kick coming in… Back out? Too close… Step in and stuff? Too late… Get the knee up… check… Get the elbow down… Check…

He missed with the shin but caught it with the arm. MUCH better than taking that buggar to the belly.

[leejam99]

Re: Kick Defenses

quote Nixxon:

…..or just completely getting out of the way would be the best.

If you can do that…you would not need to learn any type of self defense techniques.

Of course you can move out of the way IF YOU SEE IT EARLY ENOUGH and have time to move your feet. BUT, your not going to every time so you need to train from a point when you are late..and you have to use a defense technique to save your self.

As mentioned before, there are several different types of kick defenses in the KM system. Some over lap meaning they would be used in the same scenario, some are not. Think of them as tool in your tool box. if it doesn’t work for you, don’t use it. Use what make sense for you.

with that said, if you were just kick in the groan and you were bending forward….and the attacker decided to kick you again, that would be a good reason to use the stabbing defense because you’ve over committed your weight forward and you can not stand backup to use your leg to defend. if done right, you should not be very open to other attacks at that moment

[clfmak]

Re: Kick Defenses

I focus on using the upper body to defend itself and the lower body to defend itself (this is common in southern kung fu). Using the legs to block low attacks allows you to keep your arms in position to defend or attack. When you see shin checks in muay thai, the arms are kept high to shield, and this often saves someone from an anticipated low kick that ends up being a head kick (I saw a guy try to block or catch a kick he thought was to the body or legs and he ended up catching a shin through the face in a san da tournament in Florida).
Also RE getting out of the way- lots of arts (probably including krav maga) don’t advocate this too much because you can’t counter if you move away and now they have room to charge. Its also really hard to move away from a fast kick- try sparring using each option, and the shin check will most likely be higher percentage. Personally, my preferred option is to defend with stop kicks by straight kicking them off balance or using the sole of my shoe to jam their leg as they kick, but I can only pull this off if they give me hints they will throw the kick by the way they start positioning themself.

[nixxon]

Re: Kick Defenses

Thanks for all the input guys. Very helpful. I think out of all of them I like the shin check with the elbow-to-knee best. The stabbing does make a little more sense as well.

I appreciate you guys taking the time to explain that.

[kpalena]

Re: Kick Defenses

Remember that the stabbing defence is for when you are already in a bad position…

[kevin-mack]

Re: Kick Defenses

“Remember that the stabbing defence is for when you are already in a bad position…”

says who?

[cjs-dad]

Re: Kick Defenses

quote Kevin Mack:

“Remember that the stabbing defence is for when you are already in a bad position…”

says who?

I think James just gave a good example

[kevin-mack]

Re: Kick Defenses

well..the stabbing defense and the other hand defenses have alway been the primary kick defense in KM.The leg check came into the curriculum later on so while yes..it is great for when you are in a bad postion it is not ONLY just for that situation.

[kevin-mack]

Re: Kick Defenses

wait..I think I just confused myself…are we talking about a round kick defense or a front kick?

[cjs-dad]

Re: Kick Defenses

I was actually referring to James/Leejams post above.

Keeping in mind Kevin that not only are we both KM instructors but we are also both seasoned fighters/trainers who teach our fight curriculum at NTC.

James is also a certified Bas system instructor as well.

So we kinda have a little frame of reference on the subject. thumbsup

[Author]

Posts