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I was wondering if I could get some of your opinions on the effectiveness of Krav vs. Filipino martial arts (like, Kali, Arnis, Eskrima, Kun Tao etc.). I know that those styles are very effective when it comes to weapons but are their weapons defense and self defense methods as or more effective as the ones taught in Krav? If anyone on this forum has any Filipino MA background I’d really like to hear what you think the pros and cons of both systems are.
I was also wondering what everyone thinks about Krav teaching more weapons based fighting. I know we’re a self defense system but if you have the opportunity to pick up a weapon and use it then you probably should. And you should probably know how to use it right.
Any opinions and feedback would be appreciated, especially from other instructors.
Thanks
I don’t know have much experience with Filipino martial arts, but I really like the idea of more weapons fighting in KM training. Problem is, officially, these things don’t start ’til brown belt (going toward black) and there so there are virtually no classes for that level. We do it here and there, but it may be interesting to have more advanced classes available for those who would want to learn these things.
There are stick vs stick exercises in KM, also stick vs knife, multiple attacker with weapons etc. Learning how to use improvised weapons could also be fun. We used to have a LV5 class that was almost more like a LV6, where we did a lot of weapons fighting for a while, but the teacher left for the other center and it was canceled then. 😥
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GiantkillerI wasn’t fully aware of the advanced levels having more indepth weapons training so thats cool that it’s there. I quess I’m just impatient with learning new things . And I love the idea of improvised weapons, that could be some kick ass stuff.
I just caught the last few minutes of Human Weapon where they were talking about Eskrima. The guy was fighting an Eskrima master. All I kept thinking was ‘stick defense..YIKES’..Dang..that sucker looked painful 😀 .
I know I’m kinda anxious too. Our center had a few months back an Intro To Knife and Gun. I only missed one class and I really enjoyed it. I did see some of the defenses we were taught in the new KM book except for the knife ones where the knife’s being held on on either side of your neck or right under your neck. I think one needs to ‘walk’ before they can ‘run’.
I’m not familiar with all the curriculums for the higher levels but maybe it’s expected for a student to be more ‘experienced’ before learning weapon defenses. I know our class only allowed students who had at least passed level 2. A couple of times our instructors have thrown in the stick defenses to show us something new and get a taste of the higher levels.
I’m actually not sure when weapons against weapons training should start according to the belt level schedule, but it’s in there. It’s probably either BB or second degree BB. It’s not shown in John and Darren’s book, but Imi’s book has it, if you would want to take a little preview look. 🙂 It’s called \”How to Defend Yourself against Armed Assault\” by Imi Lichtenfeld and Eyal Yanilov. Darren edited the English language version.
There’s also some granade to look forward to, hostage situations and a chapter on improvised weapons.
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GiantkillerLike GK said, there are more weapons in the advanced classes. For the black belt test there was knife on knife and stick on stick. Cool stuff. As far as philippino weapon fighting being better than krav, maybe it is. The difference is that you can spend many hours a week for years getting good at theirs or get good enough to defend yourself quickly with krav. Everyone wants to argue what is better. Krav doesn’t claim to make people better fighter’s than mma training or better at weapons than this or that. Krav is the best at taking people from no self defense skills to being able to defend themselves quicker than anything else out there. Krav is what it is.
Having trained in both styles, mostly the FMA styles..mainly Pekiti Tirsia, my opinon is that Krav does bring an inexperienced person to a level of self defense quicker than mostly any other style. .but the true FMA’s like PTK are much more advanced.
Krav should definetely train how to use a knife just as much as learning to defend it…… you don’t learn how to defend a puch without learning how to punch back right?…..and the 360 defenses \”for me\” just don’t work when someone REALLY trying to stab or slash you.
Maybe John can speak to this better but I heard that in the Brown/Black class at the center on Friday they were sparing knife/knife with the shock knives so they do seem to be working on them???
I also have training in both styles under Grand Master Cacoy and Guru Anthony Kleeman in Tactical Knife and Doce Pares Escrima. I donít claim to be an expert at either but I did do privates a few times a week so I consider myself pretty decent.
I have been shown a lot of the KM defenses (lvl 5) and it seems very clear they stick to the principle ìgo home safeî with the most direct RBSD technique to keep the victim of the attack as safe as possible.
Iíve also seen several of Darrens stick/stick classes which hold true to the same principle. Defend / simultaneous counter – go home safe.
Although I feel the Pangamot defenses are extremely effective they take considerable amounts more practice then the straight forward KM approach.
Honestly I like them both
Just my .02 I could be wrong.
\”Krav should definetely train how to use a knife just as much as learning to defend it…… you don’t learn how to defend a puch without learning how to punch back right?…..and the 360 defenses \”for me\” just don’t work when someone REALLY trying to stab or slash you.\”
You also don’t run much of a chance of leaving your fists at home, or not being able to access them. 😉 Training time for most is very limited, and to say it is as important to train offensive knife as defensive knife doesn’t seem realistic.
Regarding the 360s, are you REALLY trying to hit them when they are trying to stab you?
Regarding FMAs being more advanced, they are, but I think it’s debatable as to whether that’s good or bad (though, for self defense, I believe it’s bad.) Advanced, to me, equals complex. I’ve trained in Balintawak Arnis, and it is very fine motor.
Combative Edge, I will go with Ryan about the 360’s – are you really hitting them when blocking? You lose training partners that way but it definately makes the defense! Saying that the 360’s don’t work for you makes me think that you need to work on them. These defenses aren’t just \”might work\” things – they are used a lot. Krav is very battle tested. If there was something easy to learn that would be more effective Krav would change to it in a second. Krav isn’t a martial art where tradition has to be considered, it is a system to save lives and they will use what works best. They get feed back constantly from people who have had to use these techniques for real.
If you have seen level 1 360’s keep in mind that people are taught to walk before they can run. Just doing a 360 agains a knife attack is better than doing nothing and getting stabbed but as you go up the levels the 360 for a knife attack is also bursting in to keep the attacker from bringing his hand back for another stab, pinning their hand behind their back, delivering the punch of your life at the same time and then kneeing the living Hades out of them. Pretty effective when done correctly.
Again, there are probably better systems to knife fight, stick fight, cage fight, etc, etc. but Krav doesn’t claim to teach better weapon fighting or any other kind of fighting. Krav claims to take the average person from 0 to being able to defend themselves faster than anything else. It does that very well.
OldKravdude…..
I did Krav for about 3-4 years so I am aware how to do a 360 defense. As I also said, I think Krav is a great style that can absolutely save your life. The problem with those defenses is the footwork, there is no getting out of that centerline of the attack. The FMA styles get much deeper in proper footwork, and positioning of the body to not only defend, but to be at an angle where the attack can only come from one direction making it much easier to defend the second attack which will be coming.
And…….Not to do the style vs. style topic……but someone doing Krav for a short period of time will probably be able to defend themselves faster than a FMA stylist that trains for a short period of time…… But I am talking about the advancent levels in FMA, \”I feel\” are much more detailed.
As some of the stuff you see may look complex, it is suprising how simple it is, and how much it makes sense. With anything it comes down to training. A krav student that trains every day will most likely be better than an FMA student training once a week, and vice versa.
And Ryan…Me leaving the house without my knife would be like leaving my house without my pants on 😆
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quote \”Combative Edge\:And Ryan…Me leaving the house without my knife would be like leaving my house without my pants onOnly one? 🙂
Some great stuff on your site
Cj’s dad…haha, it depends on the pants!
Thank you…..The site is getting worked on now as you can probably tell. The folders, and a few more fixed blades will be up soon.
And hopefully a little button that says..\”Purchase\” 🙄 [/quote]
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quote \”Combative Edge\:Cj’s dad…haha, it depends on the pants!Thats such an inside joke isnt it. And it was also my first thought after reading one of the comments above.. leave the house without my knife? Its more a matter of which knife.
The pants comment is so true.. light shorts with a heavy folder… hmm no…and dress pants are differant then jeans… and if going for a run what do you bring… ahh the necker.. LOL this could almost be a new topic.
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