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This sounds like a collar choke from BJJ. I don’t know how well it would work without a gi. A shirt may be too soft, but a jacket might be tight enough (we tried it once in BJJ class with a jacket and that seemed to be possible).
actually, we did this choke (i.e. with shirt) in class last week. except we did it while on the ground with the attacker in our guard. while i don’t think it would choke someone out, it is EXTREMELY uncomfortable and would allow one to control their attacker providing time to get up and or transition to something else. i was surprised at how effective it was. the downside is you have to be fast and you have to grab deep enough: fine motor skills. lots of practice would be needed to make this work…for me at least.
I don’t know about choking with shirt. Although very unconfortable, given 5,10 seconds to detach? Press his artery with forearm(and collar grab) and other hand grabbing the shirt (possibly shoulder) is like at least 20-30 seconds of work. You’ve got to have precise pressure point while somehow it varies for each person. You fail once, it becomes noticeable and he with instinct will defende it. Some people colapse quick, while many others are conscious enough to poke your eyes.
Sleeper hold may be better(the choke from back). This will cover about 300 degree perimiter of his neck, at least unconfortable enough to puke. It covers more area with your arm length.
a rear naked choke works really really well… would it always be my primary option, no. but people act as if when you apply it you HAVE to become hyperfocused on the person and that it takes a long time… i wouldn’t stare at the back of the person’s head,(a rnc leaves you a little less exposed than clinching for knees) i would clear the area, and when i apply them in my bjj class people consistantly tap within seconds, and these are people who train a LOT to avoid said technique. obviously if you don’t have experience with the technique, its not for you, but i sincerely feel its a technique people should learn to become proficient with… i understand people are going to disagree, but when practiced you can put someone out FAST regardless of their size (height, weight). The other benift i like is that it ISN’T bludgeoning someone by striking the back of their head or neck… i feel its actually a more humane way of putting someone out.
I mentioned the shirt choke rather than the rear naked choke because you need to stoop down and commit more to the forearm choke. The shirt choke can be done more upright. As mentioned, it may be difficult to actually choke someone like this, but it is uncomfortable.
You can go and say that a takedown, going to the ground or choke won’t work in every situation, but in some they will work quite well. In a Steve Tarani book, there’s a ground position called a \”negotiation posture\” that you can achieve from a rear takedown. It immobilizes the arms and body and puts you in a good position. Would you do this if there was multiple opponents? Of course not. But if you wanted to subdue someone without a lot of striking and such, its an option. I think basic, powerful strikes should be the main focus of self defense combatives, but other options should be studied if you are in the martial arts for the long run.I’ve been reading a book called Shotokan Secret that describes the reasons karate changed from its chuan fa roots to its modern form. Although I’m not a shotokan (or really karate in general) person, its an interesting book.
Anyway, this is related to this discussion. There’s a section on using an opponent like a human shield. Since some people have brought up multiple opponents in this context, this may be an option. There was also mention of firearms. If there’s multiple opponents and at least one has a firearm or other weapon, seizing a person as a shield may be a good option- who would shoot at someone holding their friend in front? This is also a situation where certain control holds may be useful.I have used with varying degrees of success (based on opponent sizes) a sleeper-style choke hold, but going to the front, taking the opponents face into the ground, while spreading my left leg out into a stable base and space.
The reason why I started trying to figure out how to take an opponent forward, was because I played with some big guys. I’m 5’10\” 185 and I used to try this with 6’1\”-6’4\”, 200-250 lb-ers. I had to jump to get the right angle and then apply the heel hooks. They figured out quickly that if they launched themselves while I was setting in, that they could drop their weight and shield their heads while applying me to the ground in a dead fall. Let me tell you – it hurt – and knocked the wind out of me. Glad it wasn’t concrete.
So, I figured that while you had your opponents back, a strike behind the knee or the groin caused them to move forward. I side-stepped the sleeper hold and kept moving forward, taking them (with momentum) headfirst, with their backs to my side.
I would shoot my left leg out as a base. They couldn’t roll into me, their left arm was trapped under them. My knee was behind their neck – if needed for something more drastic than a choke-out.
All in all, it seemed pretty damned effective, when behind, a larger opponent, and armed with a rifle. A knife or pistol and I might think different about it.
Sorry….just worked 14 hours and needed to say something non-work related!
see his back
I can’t help it, every time i see the dudes back I’m fighting I automatically go into a rear naked choke. I can’t really stop it, its inbedded in me…
The only problem with that is when they start to lose air flow, thier adrenaline kicks in, and they start kicking and flaling around like chickens with thier head cut off. A seal showed me a choke from behind that knocked off your blood supply, but still let you breath. Youd pass out without the effects of the Rear Naked choke…
Don’t Krav Maga people have basic reflex to avoid naked choke?
That’s part of the reason I don’t do this very often.
Team guys often show up at Virginia Beach KM facilities?Re:
quote \”taikei\:Don’t Krav Maga people have basic reflex to avoid naked choke?
That’s part of the reason I don’t do this very often.
Team guys often show up at Virginia Beach KM facilities?guys, krav maga generalizes to cover the broadest field, but without specific expertise… a krav student’s reflex to shrug your shoulders, to tuck your chin, to pluck are arms, is NOT going to help you if its a complete surprize from a student of a system that specializes in rear naked chokes…
i take Krav maga 4 times a week… and in the same stuido bjj 4 nights a week… but whenever we do sleeper defense in my krav maga class i’m ususally picked to be an attacker… when the other students know its coming i still catch a lot of GOOD people who train very hard… why?
its foolish to believe that unless your constantly train with people wwho KNOW how to \”viciously\” lol put a sleeper on (having a purple/brown bjj student in your krav class to be the attacker) someone, your not capable of getting it off \”easily.\” Its illogical to believe you can defend against a hard attack without someone who can do the attack \”hard\” to train with.
and i’m not talking big guys, i mean guys who SNAP sleepers on, if yhou pluck at one arm, immediately feeds the second from the other side, and so on… someone who doesn’t mind if you strike their groin, HARD, in the time it takes for the second arm to enter the picture, because once he sinks the sleeper in, will use the pain to make him squeak harder…
someone who’s locked a sleeper on, and had the defender do a front flip, LANDING on the attacker, and the attacker only tighten from the pain, not loosen knowing he can take any pain for 3-5 seconds…
if you don’t have someone like that, in your class, attacking you students, how could theyh possible defend against it in real life, in real time, under real stress?
quote :guys, krav maga generalizes to cover the broadest field, but without specific expertise… a krav student’s reflex to shrug your shoulders, to tuck your chin, to pluck are arms, is NOT going to help you if its a complete surprize from a student of a system that specializes in rear naked chokes…You are right in just about every aspect, except this topic is given as not being a surprise attack rear naked choke.
Yeah, I didn’t realize. My picture is an east coast SEAL guy choking someone.
i’d even include, if someone has gotten behind you that’s really good at rnc’s and you know an attack is coming… the point is the krav maga defense will work for the average person against the average person… it will even work against a highly skilled attacker IF its TRAINED with a highly skilled attacker.
my point is unless the attacker in your class is like i described, your going to have a real hard time stopping someone who IS like i described in real life… just my opinion.
we have judo and bjj at my krav school… just speaking from MY experiences and they are by no means absolute.
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