Tactical Decisions

[liquid-rockface]

My question is a bit hard to define but I hope that some of you will understand what I am talking about.

Basically I feel that as great as training in Krav Maga can be, there is one factor which for me is the biggest to overcome, and is impossible to really calculate without experience (and probably some luck).

So the story is this. You get into a verbal altercation with somebody. It’s nothing too serious but it’s quite heated. The issue at hand is a little petty but still important to you, let’s say that you were in your car when a guy starts parking in front of you and bumps into your car, denting it. You get out and ask for his insurance details etc so that you can be compensated for the damage (after all you don’t want to pay for somebody else’s dumb mistake!) and he starts getting worked up about it and starts walking towards you.

Now, at this point I have a couple of questions:

1. How do you know what his intentions are. He may be armed, he may not be (let’s assume that 99% for sure he’s unarmed or doesn’t intend using any weapon, it’s a good neighbourhood), the guy is bigger than you and also older (so there is a bit of a respect barrier) and you cannot work out exactly when he will stop walking towards you or what he intends to say or do. You could make this more complicated and add that his wife and children are outside the car too and are also getting involved verbally. Oh and maybe your wife and family are there too, with your wife begging you not to get involved.

2. Taking into account no. 1, how do you calculate the right time to take defensive action. He hasn’t touched you yet, but he’s closing in at a decent speed. Maybe he just wants to get nearer to you to make his point clear but maybe he will turn violent. He is shouting (or maybe just talking calmly; more confusing) at you the whole time so you are trying to figure out what he’s saying and how relevant it is and how you can counter what he’s saying, but it is also overwhelming you a bit and you cannot get a word in edgewise to tell him to stop coming closer. Even if you do and he doesn’t stop, does that give you the right to injure him?

Of course in a court of law it is always the attacker who is guilty. Now if you wait too long, he could come up to you and break your face before you can do anything about it. However if you attack first you are the attacker and could be charged in court for assault. They could furthermore say how his family was traumatized by watching their husband and father getting assaulted over a silly matter. The other issue is use of force. Let’s say you decide that you must stop this guy before he gets an opportunity to hurt you. Now if you use just a little force, say you kick him hard in the shin, you could just make him really mad and now he has a real reason to hurt you because you attacked first and he wants to get revenge! On the other hand if you kick him in the groin then knee him in the face, grab him and slam him into the concrete and break his arm on the ground you will definitely be in deep trouble with the law, even though you have certainly neutralized the force and he will not be harming you!

For me though the main problem is to neutralize that threat of somebody approaching you aggressively. I have been in that situation a number of times and 80% of the time the person doesn’t want to harm you at all. I did once get caught by surprise though and almost got thrown through a glass door…by a friend!

I’d greatly appreciate any insight anybody can give to this please.

Back to my original point about training. I mean, when somebody comes up to you aggressively you cannot know what attack they are going to use on you so it’s not like in training when it’s “ok now he’ll do an overhand attack to your head”. In this kind of situation described above you don’t even know that the person is intending to harm you at all. There’s nobody there to ring a bell and say “Fight!” and you jump to your fighting stance.

[cjs-dad]

Re: Tactical Decisions

Being one that somehow tends to find myself in situations like this I have a very simple rule of thumb. Stay out of my dance space.

I don’t know what the laws are in Israel but I can tell you that in the past I have used “He was advancing on me in an aggressive manor with intention to do me harm so I reacted in self defense” or “the moment he pulled the knife I feared for my life and reacted” or “the gun was aimed at me I feared for my life and reacted by breaking his arm and doing a disarm technique”. Each time I was questioned I was never arrested just made to sign a statement.

The moral to the story is when someone is approaching you in an aggressive manor the minute they cross over the line into your dance space I view it as an attack. Your options are to verbally warn them to step back and try and diffuse the situation or defend yourself.

Placing yourself in a passive stance with arms slightly raised and loudly warning the individual with words such as “I don’t want any problems” “and lets discuss this” will go a long way to witness accounts later should the need be.

Also please keep in mind this is just my opinion based on past experience and should not be viewed as an official KMWW stance.

This might be a good question for some of our LE friends to comment on, I could be completely out of line.

[mike-g]

Re: Tactical Decisions

You want to when your “when” is? There are a lot of variables in that without knowing the other persons intentions. In your example there is nothing wrong with telling the person to stay back (out of your space) and wait on the Police. In doing that you can be loose in your fighting stance with your hands up just in case he has other intentions. Not tight,lowering your center with fists up and ready to go. I can’t really say that if you are the first one to strike that you will be arrested either. In the US it varies from State to State but in alot of States you don’t have the duty to retreat from an attacker regardless of whether or not he throws the first blow. Now Police Officer usually shows up to the scene after the incident is over and has to rely on witness statements,your statement, and the other guys statement to determine what happened. If you can articulate the fact that you were afraid for your safety based on how the other guy was acting ,(in a threatening manner ) and he refused to stay away from you and kept coming towards you after you told him to stay back, then there is high probability that you won’t be arrested. Now on the other hand if it’s just you and the other guy and his three friends in his car and no other witnesses then it’s probably not going to matter if he hits you first or you hit him first. All of them can say you instigated or started the fight whether you did or not. I don’t know how the laws are in Israel but here in South Carolina you wouldn’t instantly go to jail because you threw the first blow in defending yourself from what you perceived as an impending attack. It also helps to verbalize loudly so others can hear. Earwitnesses are almost better than eyewitnesses. People may not see what leads up to the fight. They just see you hit this guy. Everybodies version of the event is slightly different when they see it but when they hear something like” get back, I don’t want any trouble, stop fighting me” they all usually remember that verbatim. That also helps confirm your statement that you were in fear of being assaulted by this person. I’m a Police Officer and I have never arrested anyone for defending themselves when I could in fact corroborate that they were defending themself even if they threw the first punch. Hope that helps you a little.

[craig-p]

Re: Tactical Decisions

Several months ago I was the victim of some postal workers ( he was in his own car, but in uniform) road rage. He yelled and threatened me but I thought the situation was over and ignored him. He actually followed me like 3 blocks, after I parked and got out of my car he pulled up next to me. Believe me, I felt threatened at this point, but I remained very calm and tried to talk to him… until he opened his car door. For me, the door openening was kinda like that aggression switch we have discussed in other threads, I lunged into his car and proceded to subdue him by introducing his face to his steering wheel and getting his left arm in a sort of elbow joint lock, the whole time I was loudly exclaiming that he was scaring me and that I felt very threatened by him. Hehe ok maybe I was saying some profanities too! It was kinda funny that I was somehow aware of the appearance to witnesses, as CJ’s dad made reference to. That was about the extent of the situation.

I did call the police dept to file a complaint as I really did feel he was going to attack me. The officer made it clear that if they had been on scene I would have been arrested. He went on to say that it is very unfortunate that the innocent have to be physically attacked before they can defend themselves. From my experience, perception of danger does not give you the right to be the aggressor.

With all that said, had I done nothing he may have gotten out of his car and shot me or worse beat me up (making all my training look bad). In my opinion, I did the right thing.

[mike-g]

Re: Tactical Decisions

I was writing this while CJ’s Dad posted his response. Strangely enough there are a lot of similarities. Where you reading my mind Sean?

[cjs-dad]

Re: Tactical Decisions

quote mike_g:

I was writing this while CJ’s Dad posted his response. Strangely enough there are a lot of similarities. Where you reading my mind Sean?

LOL MikeÖ naa just stating facts and using a little common sense. As rational adults in todays world we need to prepare ourselves for those less then rational individuals who are intent on doing us bodily harm.

My dance space analogy is very real and no one has any reason to step inside it unless they have bad intentions. As a responsible member of society I need to warn then take action accordingly less I become the victim. And I carry the scars to validate it.

As an LE theres a reason your taught (21ft?) when you interview.

Too many crazyís out there.

BTW Craig you drive a Escalade who in their right mind wants to play road rage with that tank?

[giant-killer]

Re: Tactical Decisions

What’s wrong with postal workers anyway? :):

In the accident example, I’d probably get into a defensive type of fighting stance, hands up, one foot back, but looking non-threatening. Then I’d try to calm the guy down, but watch him closely. Does he put his hand into his pocket? Does he appear as if he might pull his arm back to then swing at me? I’d also watch his passengers for any signs of possible aggression. Also, you should always assume that it’s possible that he’s armed. Just because this is taking place in a “good neighborhgood” doesn’t mean he isn’t. Rich guys carry weapons, too, and tough guys from tough neighborhoods travel to nicer ones on occasion, so you never know.

If he refuses to give his information it’s okay, you could always write down his plate number and give it to police. Or he may not even drive away, instead continuing to park there, in that case you could get police or a security guard. I’d avoid a fight at any cost, especially if he has passengers you might have to fight as well if the altercation escalates.

That makes me wonder: If one or several of the passengers are children, let’s say around 12, 13, 14 and decide to participate in any fight, hitting me, what right do I have to hit them back? After all, they are minors, yet it’s a three or four on one fight that I didn’t start and in my particular case, these kids may be bigger than me (I’m about the size of your average 12-year-old). Is there any law that says I can’t hit minors who threaten or attack me? Or that I would have to use lesser force against them?

_________________
Giantkiller

[leam]

Re: Tactical Decisions

All good advice, especially the loud verbalization. One thing I would adjust is when you have your hands up, put them palm out, fingers open, and at eye-level. That way you are making a large target and most people focus on the closest thing first. So if he *was* going to attack you the odds are that he would make contact with your hands before he tried for your face. He starts the fight, you finish it, and witnesses hear your words and see your non-hostile position.

Of course, that your hands are up makes it less likely he sees you adjust your feet to whatever sets you up best. rofl2

Leam

[liquid-rockface]

Re: Tactical Decisions

Thanks for all the great advice! I especially like Ieam’s suggestion to put an arm out so that they will likely attack that first. Then as soon as they reach for your hand attack them. Kindof like if a dog attacks you…

What would you guys do in the same situations mentioned above but if you thought that you were very unlikely to win a fight against somebody. I mean you don’t always have the option to just run (maybe you’re with your family and you certainly don’t want them to get hurt instead of you).

I just got back from KM now and I feel generally quite a lot better equipped. Due to so many people being sick my partner today was this 1.9m 110+kg enormous guy. Honestly I could barely get my hands around his neck (which is about as thick as my thigh) but I noticed that after repeated kneeing in the stomach (which formed a large part of our practise today) he started to put his arm up to guard his torso, despite telling me that I wasn’t hurting him not to worry (was only using about quarter strength)! I also learnt that it’s not THAT hard to pull down such a big guy but you need the element of speed and surprise so that he won’t have time to resist so much.

By the way, do you guys think that a certain punch or kick is less painful for big guys than smaller people? Like if a 110kg guy absorbs a strong punch from a certain attacker, will it hurt him less than that same punch being thrown at a smaller attacker? And what hurts more, having muscle or fat or being skinny?

[leam]

Re: Tactical Decisions

Two good questions, let me give the answers I’ve come to terms with. Keep in mind that these are *my* answers; I don’t have much Krav experience and some of these are very personal decisions.

There is no fight you cannot win, you just have to be willing to redefine “win” from fight to fight. My best fight was in a foreign country against an angry mob coming down the street. It was me, my wife, my instructor, and his wife; and none of us looked like nationals. We won by ducking into a small shop and hiding, while lessening the numbers that could come at us if they so chose. After the crowd passed we executed the “get out of Dodge” defense with some alacrity and left unscathed.

So let’s address the situation you described; your family is there and you’re the only thing between them and the bad guy(s). You have to start this fight now, because you don’t know when it will happen. Your first defense is having a cell phone or other signalling device that is always ready. Teaching your wife to shoot and having a gun handy won’t hurt either. Now we’ve started to redefine “win”; you don’t have to beat the baddies up, you just have to give your family enough time to flee, arm themselves, or summon help.

Which brings us to our next pre-fight training. You need to decide what you’re willing to do to another human and under what circumstances. If your family is threatened, are you willing to take a life? Are you willing to give yours? When you’re surprised in a dark alley is no time to ponder those choices, you need to work through them now, and do so with your family. Let them know what to do so the time you buy with your actions is well used.

If you must fight, and risk death or permanent injury to yourself or another, start training like that now. How often do you practice ground fighting? Fighting with both arms unuseable, or one/both legs injured? While I’m not really into the mystic side of things, there are probably some serious body language signals you’ll send when you’ve been beaten to a pulp before and you’re willing to do it again to defend your family. The attacker has a desire for gain, or ego, or anger. You’re fighting for life and there’s a lot of difference. Get past the fear in your head and your attacker won’t know why you’re not cowering.

So you’re in the fight. Blow a kiss at the biggest and baddest dude there, call him “sweet cheeks”, and politely ask if he’s willing to play. Psychology is a weapon too; make him want to face you alone so you buy more time and your odds are better. Generally the strongest attacks are side kicks and round kicks to the 45 degree. Never round kick straight ahead, most of the power is lost. Hands are not as strong but more accurate.

Big guys can go down too. A side kick coming in at 45 to the knee will break it, even on us fat dudes. Although best protected by arms and muscle/fat, a strong blow to the solar plexus/xiphoid process will do some stopping damage. Keep in mind that the spine is fairly exposed, even on heavyweights. A lower back point attack with the heel will do some work for you. Lastly, eyes are soft and any head wound bleeds profusely. If you can seriously cut or scrape over the eyes it make you harder to see.

Work on your advantages, train for his weaknesses, and be ready to do your best.

Hope that helps.

Leam
–Hoping I don’t sound like a blood-thirsty fiend after that post…

[louis]

Re: Tactical Decisions

Good tactical question first of all. Here is how I would break all of this down.

The first step in this is the verbal confrontation you mention. I also firmly believe that every encounter has this major component and is the first area to understand, unless it is a true sucker punch attack where there is no pre-contact to violence. Besides understanding the choice speech tactics which can include asking questions to keep them talking and for those who understand it even certain NLP (neuro linguistic programming) can even be employed here and at this stage you need to understand body language. This is body language in terms of violent and non-violent postures and reading intentions. I will suggest a book here rather than trying to explain it all and it is Galvin de Becker’s Gift of Fear. This should lay out the first stage of this encounter. You have engaged in a verbal dialog that is congruent with your non-violent stance. By the way the above post on putting your hands out with palm out is good let me add do not curl the fingers at all as this is a violent posture and keep the arms shoulder width apart , to close they can trap both arms and to wide they could slip inside easily, I like to create that wide hook punch as pretty much the only viable attack for the untrained street fighter.

As the rest of this plays out you are constantly analyzing the words he uses and his postures to determine the outcome based on your life experience, In training however you can run this drill over and over playing various outcomes so you create good mental blueprints to base your choices after.

As far as do you attack well for myself I use the analogy of cross this line and now your mine. i kind of picture the old bug bunny cartoons when he draws the line over and over at some point action occurs and for me it is very scenario based, i do not have one solid answer as there are many factors at play such as do I have a clear escape route, am I with loved ones, is this my mortgage money, and so on with each playing a role to my choice at that time. I also have this thought if they guy is threatening me with a weapon he has already emotionally harmed me and has done nothing to earn my trust so why trust him further but again each situation is different, I may follow along or use that as a tactic to gain false trust back.

Ok before I go on and on this should give you some things to think about and try in training.
And as for the best strike I think i saw as a question I think use the the combative option that first presents itself and do not worry what it does you have other options that will occur and change based on the attacker. There is no one miracle shot just turn the blender on puree and chop that banana up.

Louis

[downforlife76]

Re: Tactical Decisions

Any time I get into a confrontation, the phrase that has been drilled into my head by my chain of command always pops up…. “minimal amount of necesary force to control the situation”. That’s not always what happens, but oh well ;):. If you want to avoid legal troubles, the best bet is to avoid the fight. If people see you saying “I don’t want any trouble, please step back a bit so we can talk about this”, it’s hard to make a case that you were instigating the fight. If the person keeps coming at you and you have time, give another warning. Then, if he keeps moving into your dance space as sean called it, use the minimal amount of force necesary to control the situation. I think the main key is that you shouldn’t be advancing on the other person unless it’s completely necesary. If they advance on you aggressively after you’ve warned them, no reasonable person would even try to hold you accountable unless you beat the guy into a coma after you already knocked him out.

As far as what you should do if you get into something you’re sure you’re going to lose when running isn’t an option (i.e. family there, etc etc etc)… Stand your ground and do the best you can. I’ve had to deal with this a few times with varying results. If I’m with someone who doesn’t know how to fight and some bad crap pops off, I feel obligated to try to difuse the situation, control the situation, or at least take a few blows and give the non-fighters a chance to get out of dodge. You shouldn’t go into a situation like that thinking you’re going to lose anyways though. You always have a chance… Especaily if you know your stuff and you stay aggressive!

Am I rambling? I need to start sleeping one of these days…

J-

[giant-killer]

Re: Tactical Decisions

I’m pretty small, so in most situations I would unfortunately have to face a bigger attacker. If I couldn’t avoid a fight, I’d try to go for vulnerable targets such as the groin or the eyes, maybe the throat, hoping to at least distract him for a moment, then run as soon as possible. If I can’t get away easily, maybe I could buy me a second or two with a groin kick, then quickly pick up something heavy to use as a weapon.

Fighting bigger people sucks, but if you have no choice, you just have to try to do enough to distract him, so you can get away.

I do think a 200 pound guy hitting another 200 pound guy in the stomach would hurt that person less than that same 200 pound guy hitting a 100 pound guy in the exact same spot. Not sure about the head, though, as most people’s heads seem to be roughly the same size and there are no muscles or fat there. But overall, yeah, a much bigger guy will be able to cause you a lot more pain, so you would want to get away as soon as possible and hopefully avoid the fight altogether if you can.

_________________
Giantkiller

[skaldgrimnir]

Re: Tactical Decisions

quote CJs Dad:

As an LE theres a reason your taught (21ft?) when you interview.

I’m not a LEO, but I have a couple military and former military (now-LEOs) in the family (I am not a Lawyer, but I play one on TV in the far distant future).

Last I remember, 21 feet (7 yards) is the average distance a person can move in 1.5 seconds. That’s also a reasonable speed to draw a handgun, and place two shots in center mass for a well practiced shooter.

As such, I was told that if someone was ever that close, that I should still try to draw and fire, but I should expect the attacker to be able to make it to me, and I should react accordingly. Least, that’s what my old man says.

Now, unfortunately, I have a lot of the technical knowledge of things like that, but little practical experience of self defense.

[liquid-rockface]

Re: Tactical Decisions

My star sign is Leo, does that count? 😀

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