Tactical Decisions

[downforlife76]

Re: Tactical Decisions

quote Liquid Rockface:

Now what would you do in that same situation (let’s call it “1a”) if he demands that you come with him. What would you do if maybe he’s not alone but there is an additional one or two aggressors, let’s say they have knives. So now you are presented with one assailant with a gun and two with knives, and they want you to come with them. Of course this is different from the wallet and cellphone scenario because you don’t know what they want from you. Attacking a person who is pointing a gun at you as well as two knife opponents could mean no possible chance of surviving. And what if the people with the knife are close at your side controlling you while the gunman is further away? Also, how do you control the overwhelming fear in such situations? If you think too much you could waste too much time and lose your opportunity of surprise. Think too little you could die from being too impulsive.

Now scenario no. “2”. You’re in your house and you are suddenly confronted by a man with a gun (or even a shotgun or automatic weapon). Or maybe it’s more than one man. These guys want to rob your house. They start to poke around and then they also want to tie you up to make sure you don’t run away or disturb them. What do you do?

As far as scenerio 1 goes… First off, situational awareness and making yourself a hard target should GREATLY reduce the risk of this ever happening. If you do find yourself in this situation, however, I would say it really depends on your skill level. Obviously, this is not the scenerio to try out a move you saw in a Steven Segal flick 18 years ago if you just started KM1. I don’t know if there are any good techniques that would get you out of a situation like that, and if there are any, they are far above my pay grade. Sometimes people will get the drop on you. Sometimes you don’t have any good options. If you are in a situation where if you attack, you’re dead for sure and if you don’t attack, you’re probably not much better off, I would say wait for your best oppertunity to attack. It’s definately not going to be when one guy has a knife at your back, his other buddy is next to him with the knife, and the gun wielding friend is 3 or 4 meters away. Don’t be too hasty, but don’t miss a good oppertunity either.

With scenerio 2, there are plenty of weapons defenses in Krav Maga that are perfect for that kind of close quarters situation. From my understanding, there are defenses against multiple attackers with weapons in the higher levels. I’m a big advocate of keeping a firearm in your home (AFTER you learn how to use it propperly) for these kinds of situations and ALWAYS securing your doors and windows so you have time to get to your weapons in case of a break in. This keeps the odds slanted a bit more on your side than trying to do unarmed defenses against some crackhead with a Tec-9.

J-

[giant-killer]

Re: Tactical Decisions

I remember Darren pointing out that your chances of getting killed by an assailant become many times greater (up to 90% I believe he said) when the attacker or attackers try to remove you from the original crime scene. So, considering that, fighting may be your only option. I agree with downforlife that awareness could help avoid such a scenario (or maybe give you at least a bit more time to prepare to act). If they are really close to you, I guess you could try to offer them your money, wallet, anything, but if they insist on forcing you to come with them, maybe you would have little choice but to fight. It may all depend on how they are positioned, but, if possible, it may be best to go for the gunman first. If you can get his gun quickly, you may be able to use it as a weapon. If they have you surrounded, try to move out of the middle, maybe turning the assailant you have decided to fight first, so that he is now in between you and the other attackers, giving you a bit of time to remove his weapon, so you can use it against him and the others.

This should be tough, but it may be possible. I remember John once telling a story about a guy who was confronted by either two or three guys with knives, somewhere in Brazil I think. Don’t remember exactly, but I think the guy hit one attacker and stunned the others enough to be able to get away.

One advantage you may have (if one could call it that) is the element of surprise. The attackers probably fell very powerful in that situation and completely in control. If you then suddenly act when they least expect it, they may be so surprised that they don’t react fast enough, possibly giving you a chance to break free and just start running, creating distance.

As for the home invasion, that’s a tough one. Again, preparedness can help. I guess you would just have to listen to your instincts when making your decision about whether or not to let them tie you up. If you are getting the feeling that all they want is cash and then they’ll leave, maybe let them do it. Or you could try to persuade them not to tie you up if you promise to show them the safe or other valuables throughout the house. If they go for it, you could simply comply, or maybe, if you do see an opportunity to fight back, you could take it. Of course, the decision would become even tougher if it’s not just you in the house, but maybe your wife and kids as well.

These are interesting scenarios and it would be good to train on them more often. Also, I wonder if there is a defense against two guns, held at close range by two different attackers? One could redirect both of the weapons simultaneously, but how would you take them away? Or you could defend against one, then turn the attacker, using him as a shield.

_________________
Giantkiller

[liquid-rockface]

Re: Tactical Decisions

I just found previews of these DVDs for sale at http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=contemporaryfighting&p=r

Looks very similar to Krav Maga and I like how they include scenarios similar to my original question. I noticed a few flaws here and there but otherwise it looks like very sound stuff. The gun disarm is straight out of KM.

[raneman]

Re: Tactical Decisions

I wanted to thank the original poster for bringing this up and I will definately be thanking my instructors tonite when I go to class.

I had a situation over the holiday that was very similar to this and I have to say I got a little lucky.

I had my g/f and daughter with me going to the mall for shopping last week and after waiting for a parking space I pulled in and was getting out of the car. I noticed this black, raised truck parked right behind me and this guy(about 6’2″ ish and about 180 maybe 200 lbs) gets out and comes around screaming that I took his parking spot. I ducked my head into the car and told my girls to stay inside, lock the doors, and call the cops. When he reached the back of my car I told him to stay where he was and not come closer while backing up so I wasn’t pinned in between my car and the car on my right. The guy started yelling expletives and he was going to kick my ass, etc. I put my arms up palms out and told him back up and I didn’t see him there, etc(which I didn’t, we were waiting for the spot for like 5 minutes). He moved quickly toward me and I noticed he had something in his right hand but I couldn’t see what it was. When he got close enough(he crossed the gap quickly) I led with a front kick to push him back. I caught him in the chest and he fell down backwards. I again told him I didn’t want to fight and just to back up and I would get in my car and give him the spot if he wanted it that bad. Well when he fell down the knife he had dropped and scooted under my car..and when he got up he went to dig for it when he got up. I figured he would get it and try to stab me with it so I kicked him in the head and it knocked him out. I got down on his back with my knee in his neck to make sure he was still alive and then security showed up with a police officer.

Luckily I was only made to take a statement and was allowed to finish my day with my girls but it scared the crap out of them. I also was pretty lucky the knife went when I knocked him down because I could not tell what it was he had in his hand. I assumed it was his keys but like I said, kind of lucky on this one.

[craig-p]

Re: Tactical Decisions

Holy crap Batman.. um Raneman… thats crazy! Good for you staying so calm and keeping your composure.

Perfectly illustrates that allthough this may never happen to many of us we must always train with the mindset that it can and will.

[raneman]

Re: Tactical Decisions

Thanks for the support Craig. Part of it was I had already accepted that this guy was looking for trouble the minute he got out of his truck. There really wasn’t anywhere for me to go except back in the car but that would have opened up my neck and head/back to attack trying to get back in.

People get crazy around Christmas time for those parking spaces..and I do not understand why. A long walk would sure do wonders for a lot of people.

There is a sort of good thing that came out of it though..both my girls and my girlfriend want to start Krav lol.

[emil]

Re: Tactical Decisions

What about getting back into your car and driving off? What about if you see the person is agitated you avoid the conflict all together? Look, it may not be the most “ego-friendly” option, but every opportunity I have to prevent myself from going to jail, even for a little bit while the cops”sort things out”, I am going to take. That also goes for getting shot/stabbed. A friend of mine who’s a very good fighter, told me about standing up for another passenger on a train in new york. another passenger was verbally harassing a female passenger, my friend shoved him into the wall of the car and held his forearm against the throat until the guy went to sleep. I asked him”did you try to take the woman into the next car before you slammed this guy into the wall?” He said that he was too pissed at the guy for harassing another passenger.BTW, would I have done anything differently? may be not, but in restrospect it’s disturbing to think that 1: the attackers arms were free while he was being subdued(luckly he was not armed) 2: there was no attempt made at de-escalating 3: the attacker could’ve died or sued. the moral of the story for me is ” try my best to prevent, before I have to put hands on” . I’d rather deal with my hurt ego later for not punching someone in the face, than dealing with cops,courts and especially lawyers. I know that there’s a few folks out there that will talk about “being carried by 6…” and I understand all that. But the reality is that unless you’re an LEO or active military, the majority of crap that happens can be prevented with some foresight.

[raneman]

Re: Tactical Decisions

Emil,

Point taken and yes, hindsight is 20/20. I guess I forgot to mention that I am 5’6″ 165 lbs and someone the attackers size has a greater reach than I do. Ego had nothing to do with my situation so not sure why you brought that up. Boxed in between two cars in a parking garage with no where else to go without exposing myself to risk and possible harm to my family and an attacker, possibly armed, bearing down on me doesn’t leave much time to worry about lawyers and the cops. I have been stabbed and shot when I was serving my country and I don’t wish to repeat that ever again. If I could have run I would have.

I was attempting to share an experience I had that even with my basic KM training it worked and I was able to go home with my family instead of being a victim.

[emil]

Re: Tactical Decisions

raneman, the ego comment wasn’t directed at you specifically. I wasn’t there, and like I said, it’s easy for me to analyze the situation in hindsight. It was directed at all the posts here that start with” what if…”. it seems that often they tend to leave out the “before” part. the ego has to do with our pride in all the situations when we can walk away, but choose swing at someone. I am guilty of that as well, although quite a few years back.

[liquid-rockface]

Re: Tactical Decisions

Whoa Raneman!! I honestly got a chill down my spine reading that story! It was virtually identical to what I had been discussing in this post! I assume you had read the post before the incident, did it help you to be decisive in the heat of the moment?

Also, just a little question which has been bothering me. When a guy is bearing down on you, especially such a big heavy guy and you’re much smaller, is there no danger with the front kick that actually you can fall over backwards from his momentum driving forwards? Is there a certain speed where definitely you should do something different or you’ll be run over?

That is freaking scary that he had a knife too!!!! He probably would have stabbed you, and I hate to think what would have happened then. Looks like you did a textbook defense and got really lucky! How long have you been doing Krav Maga for?

By the way I must say that what was in your favour at least was that this guy made his intentions very clear from the get-go. For me the most dangerous attacker is the one who makes his intentions ambiguous and then strikes.

Anyway, once again my congratulations to you for taking the guy out, and may none of us ever be in that situation again I hope! Are there any more details of the attack that you can share with us and help bring this discussion to some kind of conclusion?

Emil, ego clearly had nothing to do with this and you shouldn’t have even brought it up. The guy was outright attacked by a man armed with a knife and anybody considering his “ego” at this point would be a dead fool.

[downforlife76]

Re: Tactical Decisions

quote Liquid Rockface:

Also, just a little question which has been bothering me. When a guy is bearing down on you, especially such a big heavy guy and you’re much smaller, is there no danger with the front kick that actually you can fall over backwards from his momentum driving forwards? Is there a certain speed where definitely you should do something different or you’ll be run over?

If you have a stable stance and you are even moderately proficient with a front kick, if that kick connects with enough momentum (his or yours, it doesnt matter) to knock you over, the impact you take is going to hurt a hell of a lot less than the attacker’s knee, stomach, groin, or wherever else you ended up striking. If this is a concern for you (and maybe an instructor might want to confirm this), I would say you should probably just really work on maintaining a strong stance and snapping back from your kicks quickly so if the momentum is too much for you to handle, you’re landing back on a solid base and it’s not going to throw you off too much.

J-

[raneman]

Re: Tactical Decisions

quote Liquid Rockface:

Whoa Raneman!! I honestly got a chill down my spine reading that story! It was virtually identical to what I had been discussing in this post! I assume you had read the post before the incident, did it help you to be decisive in the heat of the moment?

Also, just a little question which has been bothering me. When a guy is bearing down on you, especially such a big heavy guy and you’re much smaller, is there no danger with the front kick that actually you can fall over backwards from his momentum driving forwards? Is there a certain speed where definitely you should do something different or you’ll be run over?

That is freaking scary that he had a knife too!!!! He probably would have stabbed you, and I hate to think what would have happened then. Looks like you did a textbook defense and got really lucky! How long have you been doing Krav Maga for?

By the way I must say that what was in your favour at least was that this guy made his intentions very clear from the get-go. For me the most dangerous attacker is the one who makes his intentions ambiguous and then strikes.

Anyway, once again my congratulations to you for taking the guy out, and may none of us ever be in that situation again I hope! Are there any more details of the attack that you can share with us and help bring this discussion to some kind of conclusion?

Emil, ego clearly had nothing to do with this and you shouldn’t have even brought it up. The guy was outright attacked by a man armed with a knife and anybody considering his “ego” at this point would be a dead fool.

Actually, I had read this post previously and I would say it helped that I had thought the scenario over at that time. Honestly, I was just thinking to keep the guy away and out of reach because my g/f had called security/police and I knew help would be there shortly. I have taken maybe 8-10 classes so far so my training isn’t advanced but I know my teachers have stressed pushing through with the hip on that front kick and that gave me the strength to push him to the ground and he was pretty surprised I was able to reach witht he kick it seemed. This type of thing just reinforces to me that my choice on KM was a great one and having good trainers like the folks at 360 Combat Club makes a difference.

I think what helped is I didn’t panic..I was confidant I could defend myself and was prepared to do so. I think if I would have hesitated it would have been a poor outcome.

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