Virginia Tech Shootings?

[kravjeff]

Re:

quote \”VT Hokie\:

That Holocaust survivor’s name was Liviu Librescu. His son, Joe, was the guy who got me and a whole bunch of others at VT tuned into reality-based self defense.

Joe taught what he called Survival Defense – a mix of KM that he learned in the IDF, Kyokushin karate, Hisardut, and judo. It was fun, and it was brutal! I can only guess that Joe inherited that mindset from his Dad ………..

RIP Professor Librescu. We need more sheepdogs like him ………..

Dave
VT, Chemistry ’92

And from Mike \”By the way a holocaust survivior, died while blockaiding a door to protect his students as he had them escape. The thing is with our media we’ll all remember the idiots name, but we’ll forget the warriors. Shame on us.
\”

OK – I didn’t want to delete my post but did want to address this specifically …And now don’t really know what to say.

Mike – You make some great points – And thank you for holding this Professor / Warrior up in Praise!

Dave, my sincere condolances to all – It is refreshing to know that there were warriors there saving lives – I hadn’t heard of this incident.

Best of luck !

[giant-killer]

I’m not sure if it would be a good idea to just let everybody carry guns on campus. But maybe they could allow teachers to carry them. Some trusted people that would then have a way to fight back until the police arrives.

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Giantkiller

[unstpabl1]

Re:

quote \”Giant Killer\:

I’m not sure if it would be a good idea to just let everybody carry guns on campus. But maybe they could allow teachers to carry them. Some trusted people that would then have a way to fight back until the police arrives.

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Giantkiller

You trust teachers 😯 Their usually people who weren’t good enough to make a living doing what they teach 😆 I’m more worried about their mental state 😈 , but I’m a little twisted

[giant-killer]

Hmmm, I wonder how you know so much about a teacher’s mental state. Didn’t you mention once that you teach things as well? Do we have to be worried? 😯 🙂

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Giantkiller

[unstpabl1]

Re:

quote \”Giant Killer\:

Hmmm, I wonder how you know so much about a teacher’s mental state. Didn’t you mention once that you teach things as well? Do we have to be worried? 😯 🙂

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Giantkiller

Yup 8)

[giant-killer]

😯 Really? Just a warning then: Trying to shoot up the NTC would be a pretty bad mistake… 😈

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Giantkiller

[kravjeff]

Uhh – Duh! 😯

I wasn’t talking about everyone on campus walking around carrying sidearms, but clearly (to me anyway) it’s unreasonable to disallow those licensed to carry a gun, to carry them on campus (i.e., if they can carry one ANYWHERE else, why not there?). Now it may not be commonplace for college aged students to carry (legally). But, if out of 25,000 people on a large college campus (I have no idea if the number is that high), plus staff there isn’t one CCW holder I’d be suprised …

People rob banks all they time, but they typically don’t come in guns blazing because (IMHO) they know SOMEONE will be there to shoot back!!!

[jburtonpdx]

I wasn’t talking about everyone on campus walking around carrying sidearms, but clearly (to me anyway) it’s unreasonable to disallow those licensed to carry a gun, to carry them on campus (i.e., if they can carry one ANYWHERE else, why not there?).
____________________________________

I was about to respond why not let everybody who legally can, carry a weapon if they choose to. Then as I read your post that is basically what you said.

The way I think about it is, who on that campus does not have the right to defend themselves if needed? The only thing we do when we legally disarm people is take away one of the methods they can defend themselves from bad people….

Violence has zero respect for the law, those that are intent on doing violence to others are already breaking the law, why would they care about any other laws like firearms law? The rules only apply to people that follow the law, which means that those of us that follow the law are already behind the eight ball when the bad guy starts shooting/stabbing/swinging the bat/…

I of course I will continue to adhere to the law, but am going to be voting in favor of those that would return rights to me….

[kravjeff]

Re:

quote \”jburtonpdx\:

The way I think about it is, who on that campus does not have the right to defend themselves if needed? The only thing we do when we legally disarm people is take away one of the methods they can defend themselves from bad people….

Violence has zero respect for the law, those that are intent on doing violence to others are already breaking the law, why would they care about any other laws like firearms law? The rules only apply to people that follow the law, which means that those of us that follow the law are already behind the eight ball when the bad guy starts shooting/stabbing/swinging the bat/…

I of course I will continue to adhere to the law, but am going to be voting in favor of those that would return rights to me….

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Precisely !!!!

The right of self defense is one of the most self-evident, fundamental and universal human rights known to man!

Some of the earliest historical writings reinforced this right repeatedly; as does the Bible in both the Old and the New Testaments.

Protecting yourself, and voting for those who would allow you to go hand in hand. Especially in these days of danger, and of those who would take your fundamental right away.

[jewishfitness1976]

I like the idea of teachers being taught CCW, I also think that U.S. servicemen who are attending college should be allowed to carry a firearm on campus, staff and maintenance should also be allowed CCW too as well. Selected and approved CCW holders going to college also should be allowed to carry too. This way, there is a layer upon layer of protection on campus.

The only problem here is, Will the teachers or some of the staff really be able to lawfully take a life when the chips are really down? I have no problem with the US servicemen, they will take appropriate action as necessary.

It is the teachers and the staff that I am real concerned with especially in an environment so liberal, politically correct and all that the liberal teachers and staff’s minds have basically been dis-armed, even before they are able to learn the fundamentals of self defense.

That is my real worry.

[maskedkat]

\”It is the teachers and the staff that I am real concerned with especially in an environment so liberal, politically correct and all that the liberal teachers and staff’s minds have basically been dis-armed, even before they are able to learn the fundamentals of self defense. \”

That’s ridiculous.

I am a liberal Democrat. I value my civil liberties – all of them. I own a gun. I have been trained (by an NRA trainer) to shoot to kill. I take Krav Maga.

Got a stereotype that fits?

[cw4-ret-h]

Here’s an editorial I saw in another forum that seems on point to some of the issues expressed here. Not sure if some of the stated facts are true but disturbing nonetheless. My thoughts and prayers go out to friends and families of both those that were killed and those that survived. A real tragedy where mere words are not enough.

—————————- Editorial —————————————–
In 2002, at the Appalachian School of Law just up the road from Virginia Tech, a Nigerian student, who had flunked out, returned to campus, murdered three people and wounded three others. Fortunately, his killing spree was interrupted by two students who had retrieved handguns from their vehicles and held the murderer at gunpoint until police arrived.

This intervention was not unprecedented.

In 1997, an assistant principal in Pearl, Mississippi, retrieved a handgun from his car and apprehended a murderer. A few days later, a copycat assault in Edinboro, Pennsylvania, ended after a nearby merchant wielding a shotgun forced the attacker to surrender. Off campus, it is estimated conservatively that gun owners use their weapons defensively more than 1.3 million times each year.

With that as a backdrop, last spring Virginia Tech admonished a student for having a handgun on campus—never mind that the student had a state-issued concealed-carry permit.

That admonishment was a motivating factor behind a proposed bill before the Virginia legislature to prevent academic institutions from enacting \”rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed-handgun permit… from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun.\”

The legislation died in committee, prompting Tech’s associate vice president, Larry Hincker, to praise the General Assembly in a Roanoke(Virginia) Times

op-ed: \”I’m sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly’s actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus. We believe guns don’t belong in the classroom. In an academic environment, we believe you should be free from fear.\”

A month later, there was a murder near Tech’s campus, prompting a lockdown.

In response, Tech grad student Bradford Wiles penned an op-ed in the campus paper calling on the school to allow those with concealed-carry permits to carry guns on campus should they choose.

Larry Hincker emerged again, protesting, \”[I]t is absolutely mind-boggling to see the opinions of Bradford Wiles. Surely, [the editors] scratched their heads saying, ‘I can’t believe he really wants to say that.’ Guns don’t belong in classrooms. They never will. Virginia Tech has a very sound policy preventing same.\”

Congratulations Mr. Hinkler. Your \”sound policy\” created a \”safe campus\”
for only one student—Cho Seung-Hui—who was able to slaughter 32 people without interruption.

[kravjeff]

Re:

quote \”MaskedKat\:

That’s ridiculous.

I am a liberal Democrat. I value my civil liberties – all of them. I own a gun. I have been trained (by an NRA trainer) to shoot to kill. I take Krav Maga.

Got a stereotype that fits?

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MaskedKat – With respect, I’d argue strongly that you, as a liberal Democrat, are the exception and not the rule. I’d also say that there is some truth to most stereotypes …

It’s also no secret that it’s the \”liberals\” who promote gun control and villify conservatives who generally support gun rights … I would concede that it is also a cultural / geographic issue; meaning that it’s likely that a \”liberal\” Democrat from a rural area would support the second amendment, whereas a a \”conservative\” Republican from a major metropolitan city may be more \”anti gun.\” But let’s be honest. Generally speaking, when it comes to our policy makers there is a gap amongst party lines when it comes to controlling your right to arm yourself. Wish I had time to look up voting records ….

Additionally, I agree with JewishFitness 1976 – It’s no secret that academia is a bastion of \”stereotypical\” liberals (those unlike yourself).

Taken from a Washington Post article from a couple of years ago after a simple Google search:

\”College faculties, long assumed to be a liberal bastion, lean further to the left than even the most conspiratorial conservatives might have imagined, a new study says.

By their own description, 72 percent of those teaching at American universities and colleges are liberal and 15 percent are conservative, says the study being published this week. The imbalance is almost as striking in partisan terms, with 50 percent of the faculty members surveyed identifying themselves as Democrats and 11 percent as Republicans.\”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html

CW4 – Thanks for the post ! I’d heard those stories, but it is my understanding that they were generally buried by major media.

[giant-killer]

\”By their own description, 72 percent of those teaching at American universities and colleges are liberal and 15 percent are conservative, says the study being published this week…\”

Why, of course! Liberals are the smart ones…. 😉 😆

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Giantkiller

[maskedkat]

Hi again,
Sorry for the delay in responding. Not that it’s apropos of anything on this forum, but my sister got a heart transplant 2 weeks ago and is recuperating beautifully at my dad’s, so I spent a few days there. I’m just so damn delighted she got the gift of life, I have to at least acknowledge that before I enter the fray again… 😆

Kravjeff, you make really valid points. I won’t argue that the majority of university profs are liberals. I don’t think it automatically follows that they are atttempting to \”indoctrinate\” their students. Fact of the matter is, by the time most kids get to college they are far more strongly influenced by their families and communities. Also, I think it is a liberal value (some of us value it more than others of course) to encourage free thought – not toeing the party line.

I don’t really think I am the rare exception when it comes to my views about the 2nd amendment. I think a lot of people hear \”gun control\” and interpret that to mean \”banning guns\” or taking away the right of citizens to arm themselves. I know a lot of liberals – got a whole big Irish family full of ’em, and most of us have guns. One’s a cop, one’s a sailor (who just left Iraq and is now in Kuwait, awaiting return to Hawaii – whoooo!_. We’re a pretty good cross-section of America and, I would argue, a pretty good cross-section of the Democratic party. But I digress… the point I am trying to make is that the gun-banning advocates are a small minority. I am active on a couple of liberal blogs, and my sense (completely unscientific of course) is that most feel we already have enough legislation in place, and that more laws are not the answer. Enforcing the restrictions we do have is what we need. I think even the most die-hard conservative would agree (correct me if I’m wrong… not that you’d need my permission 😉 ) that completely unfettered access to any kind of weapon for any citizen wouldn’t be desirable. I have a feeling there is a lot more common ground on this issue on the left and the right.

What I labeled \”ridiculous\” in my original post is not the notion that, by and large, liberals are more in favor of gun laws. It was JewishFitness’s statement:

\”liberal teachers and staff’s minds have basically been dis-armed, even before they are able to learn the fundamentals of self defense.\”

What does that even mean? Seems to me to be playing into the stereotype of academics/intellectuals/liberals as limp-wristed, tweed-jacket-wearing, sissified Casper Milquetoasts (if they’re male). C’mon… you honestly think that liberal political ideology is going to render one incapable of learning self-defense? Data, please, if you have it.

Interesting discussion here.

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