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For the record, the idea that the NTC \”went through a period like that\” is Giantkiller’s opinion. He’s welcome to it and, in fact, I was happy to respond to it in my own classes by focusing on technique a little more. But overall, as I stated when he brought this up before, we’ve always placed a premium on combative drills, stress drills, etc. that create exhaustion and cause people to work through it. And, again with deference to Giantkiller’s preference, I got an equal number of complaints from people who wanted more of that work. ALL of those people came for self defense, but they all wanted to feel the exhaustion and stress of a fight. The conditioning is part of it.
Hi John!
Yes, you are right, of course it wasn’t the NTC that called it an \”aerobics phase\”, I made up that term and it was probably a bit harsh. But it’s true that there was a phase where we seemed to be doing mostly focus mitt work (often the Bas combination) or sometimes just kicks to the pad with almost no instruction other than what punches or kicks we were supposed to do. We didn’t even do a lot of stress drills during that phase, mostly just pad work and it seemed to get harder and harder for a person such as myself, who wanted to also improve technique in addition to doing pad work to find a class where we would work on that. Now that’s changed and we do a good mix of combatives and technique, which is great. I hope we will continue to do that.
Of course I recognize the importance of combatives. I’m not a lazy person, who just doesn’t want to get into shape. I take a lot of fighting classes, where, naturally, we will also do a lot of focus mitt work. I also do my own bag workout about once a week, where I hit the bag (punch and kick) for about 35min without a single break, trying to give as many hard punches and kicks as possible. That’s a pretty tough workout and great for conditioning. So I understand the importance of that.
But the second part of learning self-defense would then be to learn the individual techniques, get good at them and then start to applying them to more complicated situations, such as different angles, distances etc.
I just can’t imagine someone, who truly cares about self-defense, not wanting to learn these things and rather do the same punch combinations to the focus mitts in every single class. I mean, if you truly cared about being able to defend yourself, wouldn’t you want to know how to defend against a gun, a knife, a bearhug etc? Wouldn’t you want to make sure you are doing it correctly, so you will have a good chance at saving your life if you should ever need this for real? Once you know the basic techniques, wouldn’t you ask yourself questions, such as what if the attacker is further away? Or closer? Or grabbing you? Or at a different angle? Resisting? What if there’s an obstacle in between you and him? Or you fall and end up on the ground? So many questions to ask and explore. And answering them can get you sweaty, too, if for example you are doing one attack after the other, or you have the attacker resist and struggle for the gun/knife/stick etc.
Now some people may say, why work on all of these things, I’ll never get attacked anyway, especially not with guns or knives or sticks. So why not just hit an inanimate object over and over again that doesn’t hit you back? It’s cleaner, is more fun and maybe all the self-defense you need. Besides it burns calories.
Well, if you are thinking like that, that’s great, but I just don’t believe you truly care about learning self-defense. You might think you do, but somehow I don’t believe it. I think you may like the idea of learning some fighting, but you don’t want to put too much thought into it. You want to work out your body, but you don’t also want to work your brain a bit by thinking about different scenarios or getting the technique just right, just in case you’ll ever really need this. And it’s good to think in class sometimes so that, in a real situation where you won’t have time to think, you can just react, because you’ve done all of your thinking in class.Anyway, I think the real difference between a fitness class and an instructional class is just that, the instruction. After class, do you feel like you learned something new or improved your skills? If the answer is no, then it was probably more of a fitness class.
I know you stated before that to you the technique is the beginning not the end. I totally agree with that. Knowing only a few techniques won’t always save you in every situation. All the more reason to think about as many scenarios as possible and getting used to adjusting your technique in case something goes wrong.
\”We market ourselves to the average person because that’s who needs what we do\”
Once the already-trained Martial Artist grasps this concept when stepping into KM training, it’ll go alot easier.
Remember — \”Empty your cup\”. Those who’ve ‘studied’ the Martial Arts for any length of time will understand this.
Cheers!
Re:
quote \”chguise\:Fitness does not attract only people that can’t hang with you big boys. It brings in people who may have always wanted to study self defense but were intimidated. Believe me, though I started for body reasons, I run with the big dogs.You are an exception, then. Out of the 20 some people I trained with on a regular basis, there was _maybe_ two that could match the intensity level of the average participant in my BJJ/MMA class. Have you ever trained in MMA? If not, then perhaps you simply haven’t been exposed to that kind of intensity. This is not an insult, there’s no reason whatsoever for you to be so defensive.
quote :Talking about training partners holding you back is not only pompus but it states that you yourself may not be the good training partner you think you are. Helping someone else who truely wants to learn and get it right teaches me more about the moves then training in a class ever did. My understanding of Krav has deepened so much from training those that you wish to exclude.Why is it pompous if it’s true? Should I have just shut up about it and kept this to myself? Are you not interested in any opinion but those that are in agreement with yours?
The fact that something teaches you a lot does not mean that it would teach me a lot. People have different styles of learning, and there’s no one cooke-cutter approach.
My training partenrs were holding me back. It is possible that they would not hold you back. This is not because they are wimps or bad people, but because they were not what I happen to need. I’m not claiming to be anything other than I am – somewhat of a beginer in the martial arts. I’m not the one being pompous here.
quote :I conceed that sometimes others do not attack with enough force. Chokes are not hard enough, punches are not fast enough but where one is soft another may come hard. Your response should mirror that. If someone attacks slowly, then you should defend and counter painfully slow and perfect.This is exactly what I was doing. To go full tilt and beat the snot out of people who want to play slow would indeed make me a bad training partner. I’m not saying I didn’t get _any_ utility out of it. I did indeed learn some good things. However, I learned nowhere near my optimal pace. Once again, this is not an insult. It’s a statement of fact.
quote :I find students who act to me like the people in class are below them irritating to say the least. I have a guy in my classes that has trained all his life. He is a talented fighter and deadly on the ground. Yet he looks at every training session as an opportunity to perfect his skills and blames nothing on those around him. He attends level one up to level four classes.It seems to me that you’re arguing with a strawman. Going by your post, you can assume that I’m some sort of an elitist bastard who considers himself to be above other people and beats up on soccer moms who came to train KM to lose that extra 20 pounds. This is not the case. All I am saying is that the atmosphere and the attitude of my former training partenrs was not what I was looking for and that I am much happier in a different environment.
Once again, there’s no need to be offended.
quote :My favorite thing, before I became an instructor, was when we got these tough guys who completely misjudged me. \”She’s little and blonde, no problem.\” They’d snicker when we squared up. Underestimating your enemy is one of the worst things you can do.Sure. I train with a girl who’s about 100 pounds at most, and she’s very good on the ground, quick and precise. I learn a lot from her. What does this have to do with the topic at hand though?
quote :I know you guys mean well, but you’re missing the point of self defense. It is for everyone. Unlike sport fighting. If you find the people in your classes below your skill set, find a partner and make a point to have them come the same days as you do. Or you can come down to my gym and I’ll run you through the paces = )quote :I know you guys mean well, but you’re missing the point of self defense. It is for everyone. Unlike sport fighting. If you find the people in your classes below your skill set, find a partner and make a point to have them come the same days as you do. Or you can come down to my gym and I’ll run you through the paces = )Exactly. This is why I moved from Krav Maga to sportfighting. It’s a better fit for me. Personally. The only thing I was pointing out that relates to self defence is that upping the average level of intensity would probably be better for the students. All of them.
I would be happy to meet you in person and train with you provided that we check the egos at the door. Going by your post and by the way you seemed to subtly attack me personally and my position, I am a bit weary of this turning into an internet deathmatch of some sort. I think those are silly to say the least.
Peace.
quote :chris
runt of the litterThe bashing of Krav is interesting. I’ll also admit that most of your BJJ’ers (I’ve trained in it) and Thai boxers could probably take me out in their natural habitat on the mat.
However, I’ve never been in any of those classes where they deal with defense against weapon wielding thugs. I’ve had bats swung at me, knives and guns pulled on me — and I’ll tell you it isn’t BJJ or Thai boxing skills that saved my backside.
I had a friend, not a cop, just a neighbor who is a BJJ blue belt…a pretty skilled ground guy who takes me everytime, with me one day. We were in the parking lot of a store and we saw an assault taking place. One guy with a a bat was just beating the heck out of this guys car and shoving the bat through the window at the guys head.
I got out of the car and ran over to the guy with the bat. I ID’d myself as an officer — which I guess put him in cop killer mode because he came at me with the bat. I stepped inside his swing and took him down…he rolled away from me…still with the bat, and came at me again. I did the same thing again, except this time I locked his arms up under my left arm and gave him several knees to the groin — that ended the fight.
My friend apologized to me afterwards for not doing anything and he admitted he didn’t know what to do. Anecdotal? Sure, but I this type of thing is common with \”trained martial artists.\” They just don’t train for reality.
Incog,
I wasn’t trying to insult or attack. I believe you were the one who mentioned \”soccor moms\” and \”average joes\” holding you back.
And as for me not being interested in any opinion but those that are in agreement with mine, I could say the same to you. I was just stating my opinion after reading a few posts that gave me need to state.
And actually, Krav has developed a system of teaching that brings a person to high level in a relativily short period of time, kind of cookie cutter, kind of not.
Your opinion is quite welcome I might add, I love active banter. I verbally spar with anyone who catches my interest.
Elitist bastard? Not my words, and I never assumed it. Some guys are much better served in a different environment, fantastic. Anybody is lucky to find what suits them well.
But, the Krav environment changes like the wind because of the spectrum of techniques taught and in the sense that ya’ can’t teach inside defenses with the same hurrah that punching is taught. Needs a little finess.
No offense meant, cause when I really mean to be offensive my spelling gets all screwed up and I tend to spit. Screen’s clean. Strange you thought I was subtle, that’s the nicest thing anybody’s ever said about me.
No offense taken, cause I’m rather hard to offend, ask the five other guys I work with.
No deathmatch called here. It hard to see over the internet, but I never raised my voice once or cursed in your direction.
chris =)
Re:
quote \”The Kravist\:My friend apologized to me afterwards for not doing anything and he admitted he didn’t know what to do. Anecdotal? Sure, but I this type of thing is common with \”trained martial artists.\” They just don’t train for reality.Reality? You’ve grossly underestimated these \”trained martial artists\” because of a single incident with a single guy. Take multiple instances, gather actual stats, and then make your conclusion.
Most of the common Krav Bashing I’ve read on the net usually sounds like this summed up:
Krav Maga is too Basic–there are no advanced techniques in the system.
BJJ is the best, blah, blah.
It’s now the \”Ninjitsu of the 90’s\”
They don’t have competitions.
It’s just a scam to take money from you, but at my Dojo we teach the real thing etc. Follwed by KMTC or Krav School horror story.
It’s worthless because they don’t do Katas like [fill in the Art] or Grandmaster [Blank] say’s so.
US Krav is watered down compared to Israeli Krav.
My best guess is about 98% of the postings are complete BS and about 1.5% involves a complaint about somebody either posing as Krav instructor/ School when they are not even affiliated with KMNTC at all, and .5% is an actual school owner or instructor misconduct complaint that is investigated by KMNTC and taken care of in rapid manner if misconduct is truly found.
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