- This topic has 39 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 18 years, 8 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Kravron said – \”Never count on small guys hitting less hard.\”
Oh, definately. I wasnt trying to say a 130lb guy couldnt KO someone. But all things being equal (skill level, training, etc…) the stronger guy is going going to get the KO more often than the skinny guy. It’s just a sheer matter of physics.
Force = mass x accelaration.
All things are never equal. 😉
Strength and mass are not equivalent, and who do you think is more likely to be faster?
I’ve always been curious, are shorter people really faster then tall people? Or is it that their arms and legs have a lesser distance to travel, so when they throw a fully extended technique and retract it they travel maybe 1 foot less? Would having a short person and a tall person stand equal distance from targets and hit and retract be a accurate experiment?
As far as mass, I know when I put my body behind a punch (I’m 6’4\” tall and weigh 260 lbs.) I can knock a person holding a tombstone down. And my punch is as fast as if I just use my only arms to punch.
I agree, muscle helps in fighting. But which muscle should one focus on most? Fast twitch, slow twitch, or a combination of the two? Has anyone tried Matt Fuery’s much over-hyped \”Combat Conditioning?\” I’m thinking once the soreness from Krav goes away (I’ve had a total of six classes so far) I might try body weight exercises and my Total Gym (Hey, don’t laugh! Chuck Norris says it’s good 😉 )
G.V.
No offense taken, I understood your point. Siayan is very close to what I think works best for the type of fitness needed in Krav Maga/Fighting.
G.V. you like to hit the bag. Try this workout. Load up a bar with a weight you can get 10 good deadlifts with. Turn on the Bas tape. Instead of resting between rounds do Deadlifts. Try to crank out at least ten. How many rounds can you go before you have to rest.
For those who like calestenics, try this one: How many rounds can you complete in 20 minutes of 5 pull ups/10 push ups/ 15 squats. My record is 25, I saw a kid get 37 rounds in 20 minutes.
For those who like to lift weights try this. Complete 21 Thrusters with 95#(a deep front squat followed by a press over head)21 push ups, 15 thrusters, 15 pull ups, 9 thrusters, 9 pull ups. I’ve done this in 4:50 seconds, I’ve seen it done in 2:20.
As Siyan points out these work outs do not seperate your cardio and weight training.Ryan said – \”Strength and mass are not equivalent, and who do you think is more likely to be faster?\”
What an excellent question! Lets look at some pictures to help us decide…
Asafa Powel is the current world record holder for the 100m dash. He is the fastest guy in the world. I wonder if he weight trains…
http://sports.fr/fr/images/200434/asafapowell_reut.jpg
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/olympics/2004/writers/08/19/100.preview/p1_greene_all.jpgIn fact, look at all the guys he is racing against that are also considered the fastest people in the world…
http://morgenpost.berlin1.de/images/2004/09/07/sport/88821_normal.jpg
Look pretty buff to me…you cannot build a body like that from jogging and doing push-ups.
Now lets look at our distance runners (cardio guys)
Paul Tergat is the current world record holder for marathon racing. He ran 26 miles in 2 hours 4 minutes.
http://www.bergfieber.de/laufen/toplaeufer/internat/tergat.jpg
Here is Paul with a bunch of other super fast marathoners trying to keep up with him…
http://student.fortlewis.edu/JMWESWAH/Tergat&coliques_22.jpg
Skinny wirey guys.
Now, both guys are fast and in good shape… no one can argue that. But do you see a street fight as a sprint or a marathon? I challenge any one of you to tell Asafa Powel that weight training is bad for him, slows him down, and interferes with his technique.
To apply this to fighting, which one of these guys do you think could throw a kick faster – the buff sprinter or the skinny marathoner? It’s the guy that weight trains for strength and harnesses that into burst – the sprinter.
weight training and Krav
Excellent thread Siayn…………supersets are a buzz right now but have been around for a long time. when I was MUCH younger we would do supersets in football, wrestling and in track in college. The reason we were told was to increase the bodies oxygen capacity for a sustained amount of time with no break. It will increase strenghth, cardio capacity and just get you in a good state physically. However, I would also include some water in there somewhere. Swimming is an excellent way to end a workout session, easy on the muscles and kinda soothing from the intense beeting it takes in Krav and your other workouts. Hope it helps.
Re:
quote \”Siayn\:G.V. said – \”I believe that precise form, slow movement, and controlled breathing while lifting weights is only good for body sculpting, and does nothing (in fact, the inverse) to supplement krav maga or any other fighting art.\”How can building muscle be bad for martial arts? No one here is looking to become a creatine hulking brute from a muscle magazine. That would definately interfere with martial arts. But putting on muscle is a good thing.
Its a very simple equation, would you rather fight a 130lb scrawny stick-man with 2 months of Krav training or a 210lb built guy with 2 months of Krav training? All things being equal, the muscle helps. Ill take weight training any day over running. It gets my cardio up, and builds muscle.
If your goals are to be able to be in a fight that lasts 20-30 minutes, go run 10 miles a day. If your goal is to have a fight last 20-30 seconds and K.O. someone, put on some muscle.
It’s not like you have to choose between one or the other. But I firmly disagree that weight training is bad for martial arts. It is good as long as you integrate it into your routine and don’t become some kind of beefcake muscle-bound freak.
Well, I guess I could have elaborated. Me personally, I’m all for weight training for all those above reasons. However, I find that isolating movements like curls on preacher bars and squats on press machines is not beneficial if the goal of weight training is to be one badass motherfukker. You’d be much better served doing stand-up curls AND cheating because that’s exactly what your body would be doing in a fight. Muscle memory and all that.
Another thing, slow, precise breathing (inhale while relaxed, exhale when pressing) coupled with slow movements while lifting is great if you want to pump muscles, but not if you weight train toward fighting, because again, you couldn’t breath or move like that in a fight.
Anyways, that’s my story and I’m stickin to it. 😆
I’m not sure what your point is, Siayn. Who’s faster, the cornerback or the outside lineman? What the hell does that prove?
\”If your goal is to have a fight last 20-30 seconds and K.O. someone, put on some muscle.\” KOing someone has little to do with muscle. It has much more to do with good punching skills, shot placement, pattern interrupts, striking when the punch is not seen or expected, body sponsorship, etc. Scoring a KO after 20-30 seconds? Check out Geoff Thompson’s \”3 Second Fighter\”. That’s the real skinny on KOs.
Weight training is a pretty broad term. Unless you’re doing functional training, it doesn’t mean much. Where in your daily life to you replicate the motion used in bench press? Do you open doors that way? Would you push your car that way? Do you punch that way?
Once again, all things are NEVER equal. I’d avoid the \”130lb scrawny stick-man with 2 months of Krav training\” who grew up a competitive athlete and spent a large part of his life fighting because he was smaller, as opposed to the \”210lb built guy with 2 months of Krav training\” who grew up with a silver spoon, never fought because of his daddy, and decided at age 25 that he wanted to look good for the ladies, so he got his GNC gold card and joined Big Ape Gym.
Supersets are awesome. In my personal experience, if you’d like to kick up the cardio aspect and build muscle at the same time, superset opposing muscle groups. IE, go straight from the flat bench press into the bent over row. When you’re done, don’t rest too long. There’s many different ways to superset. Some people even do mirroring exercises together, like the lat pull down and shoulder press.
I’m pretty much sticking to my standard weight training routing, but throwing in one fast exercise. Instead of going real heavy, I’ve been shooting for a target range of 10 reps per exercise. One exercise that has seriously helped increase my punching power is the push press. I usually use a bar, put on a relatively light weight (95lbs or so) stand up, and do a fast shoulder press. You can go into a quarter squat with your legs to help get the bar up when you need to. Push up explosively, and slow down for the negative. After that, I’ll do a normal shoulder press, along with side laterals or upright rows. And of course, you can’t get better at punching without hitting the bag. Now to work on my chicken legs…
I am new to KM. I started because it improved my sparring abilities during TKD tournaments as well as stamina. I like teaching TKD because it is an art like music, paintings, etc. I feel that I have pretty good balance, stances, and so forth. What I need is a no sh*tter routine. Currently I teach Martial arts M-T and Saturday. I sweat through KM on Tuesday and Thursdays. I would like to start lifting as recovering from back surgery 3 years ago has giving me a new shape (like a pear). I have been told that if I lift and cardio on opposite days that I will only maintain what I have. I don’t want to be a pear. I know that muslces don’t exactly count but when a kid walks into my dojo, I don’t want them to see on overwieght 30 year old man. I have been told that you have to work weights 3 days straight in order to gain. What is a good supplement because I don’t each vegetables too often but do avoid most junk food and soft drinks.
drandles said – \”I have been told that if I lift and cardio on opposite days that I will only maintain what I have. … I have been told that you have to work weights 3 days straight in order to gain.\”
Not sure who told you that, but they don’t know what they are talking about. When I lifted weights in high school I worked out 3 days a week M-W-F. I did much better than maintain, I definately grew some decent muscle with no suppliments, and ate like crap cause all I could afford was Taco Bell.
I spent pretty much all of my 20’s on my butt being a fat bastard. Now at the age of 30 I am pear shaped like you. I started doing Krav 3-5 days a week, and do weight training 2-3 days a week. Weight training happens every other day, or every 3rd day. I am definately making strength gains and putting on noticeable muscle. I am also loosing fat. I know both are happening because in the last 4 months I have dropped from 250lbs to 240. However, my pants have gone from 42inch to 38 inch and the 38’s are getting pretty loose. Loosing 10 pounds of fat does not reduce your waist size by 4 inches. That means I have lost alot more than 10 pounds of fat and gained muscle weight.
I am not a trainer so I have no idea what a person with back suregery can safely do, but I can definately tell you that you will make some progress (ie, more than just maintain) even if you only weight train one day a week.
I even read one article a few months back that studied how the body breaks down and builds up muscle and found it doesnt take much. They studied weight lifters doing a traditional work-out of 3 sets of max weight of each muscle group 3 times per week. They compared this to a group of weight lifters working out 1 set of max weight of each muscle group 2 times per week. What they found was approximately a 20% difference in the amount of muscle gained.
What this means to hard-core weight lifters is that they should keep working out hard.
However, what it means to us folks who just want to build some muscle to increase our physical abilities is that you can workout 80% less and only loose 20% of the growth rate of a dedicated weight trainer. I thought that was pretty cool.
Ill see if I can find the article. It wasnt a super-scientific double blind placebo blah blah blah study, but even if their numbers are way off and you have a 50% reduction in gains instead of 20% reduction, its still worth it to do the 80% less workouts. (was that too many %’s?)
Hope that helps! Ill go look for the article right now.
Interesting Siayn. I think it would be interesting to see where everyone is at and compare workouts .
Siayn, you mentioned you are in your thirties and doing well on your program, gaining muscle and losing fat. So what was your workout today? How about the rest of you chime in. We can have an unofficial daily log and see who is doing what.
I’m 5’10\” 175# 46 years old added 10# in the last year. 8% bdyft
My workout today was:
Run 1400 M
63 Kettlebell swings X 50#
36 Pull ups
Completed in 9:50
Then 13 Pull ups every minute for nine minutes.What did you all do today?
G.V. said – \”You’d be much better served doing stand-up curls AND cheating because that’s exactly what your body would be doing in a fight. Muscle memory and all that.\”
What an interesting way of looking at it.
I learned how to weight lift in high-school. I was always taught in weight lifting to do clean movements to isolate muscle groups which results in quicker gains. However, you are right, it isolates and creates and un-natural movement. It doesn’t force muscles to work together in a realistic way.
Ill have to do some more research on this. It certainly provkes some interesting ideas on how I could modify my weight training.
Thanks G.V.!
Thanks garddawg and Siayn for the info. Since starting TKD full time again in March I have dropped from 278+ down to 250. I plan on doing weights on M-W-F and KM on T and Th. The weekends are reserved for lifting my four kids around 😀 I plan on doing a 10 minute jog to warm up on the weight training days. Monday will be Chest and Shoulders, Wednesday will be Legs and Biceps, and Friday’s will be Back and Triceps. I figure I would stretch and do abs between sets. Anything you guys can suggest, add, remove would be appreciated. I don’t see getting lower then 250 but if I can complete a KM class without dragging my butt to the car, I will be satisfied.
Re:
quote \”Siayn\:G.V. said – \”You’d be much better served doing stand-up curls AND cheating because that’s exactly what your body would be doing in a fight. Muscle memory and all that.\”What an interesting way of looking at it.
I learned how to weight lift in high-school. I was always taught in weight lifting to do clean movements to isolate muscle groups which results in quicker gains. However, you are right, it isolates and creates and un-natural movement. It doesn’t force muscles to work together in a realistic way.
Yup, exactly my thinking. Like you, I’ve been pumping weights since high school, doing the isolating movements and all that. Only after I started krav maga this year did I realize that such a workout is geared strictly toward an aesthetic, rather than toward performance.
Not that you loose any aesthetic by altering your workout, btw. Ever watch programs on the discovery channel about backwoods tribes in the Amazon or New Guinea or whatever? Those guys don’t even know what a dumbell is, but they’re all ripped…coz they’re climbing trees to get to coconuts, chasing down monkeys for a mid-day snack, and carrying pails of water from the stream a half-mile away.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
