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Re: Zero Tolerance
quote blindfold:My kids know the rules. Zero Tolerance isn’t going to protect you.Three chances. Tell the teacher, tell the teacher and the kid, KO the kid. They become a victim.
Always stick up for each other,period. We are the only ones we know we can depend on. My children know that I’m there for them if they are right.
Great rule we have the same rule but a little different, tell the Kid, then tell the teacher and the kid, take care if your self.
I tell the school at the first sign of confrontation that my boys will defend themselves and are willing to accept the consiquences of their actions, ant the attacker / bully should be also. (which may be an ass kicking)
Re: Zero Tolerance
I if might be able to revive an old thread…. This really pushes my buttons as soon as I hear the term “zero tolerance”. I generally go ballistic and get worse from there… LOL.
I have two real world experiences with this, if I can share then with you it would be appreciated, and by all means, please weigh in on the matter.
Last year, in my daughter’s first year of high school, she was attacked by a bully. The situation was previously reported to administration by her, and by me separately. Of course they assured us they were on top if it. They talked to other other girls, blah, blah, blah. And yet my daughter was attacked.
This year, at my son’s middle school (a small charter school), my son was attacked. Again, administration was previously notified there was an on-going problem, and the principal instructed my son and the other boy not to be near each other. Of course, a bully does not follow rules, just like a criminal does not obey the law. I wonder of that might be related…. Oh, and as a side note, this boy has MMA training and has threatened many times to “kill” my son with his MMA
I have MANY issues with this zero tolerance crap!
I my house, my rules are basic and simple. Behave with honor and integrity and I am on your side. Be the bully, or throw the first unprovoked attack, and we have another problem besides the one at school. My children all know I will back them up regardless of what some liberal, politically correct school administrator says or does. If attacked, they have my full permission and support to defend themselves and counter-attack as per our training.
We all (my whole family- wifey, two daughters, 11 and 16, a son ,13, and me) train in Krav Maga. I have been training my children in self defense long before I even heard of Krav Maga.
I have had many conversations with school administrators regarding these bullies and the “zero tolerance” policies of suspending everyone regardless of who was the aggressor. I notified them of my policies regarding being attacked and defending yourself. I also notified the schools they had better control the situation because my children can seriously injure another child.
However, now comes the really scary part. When attacked, neither of my children responded as they have been trained. Both of my children told me the reason they did not respond as trained was they were afraid to get in trouble at school. They errrr afraid if getting suspended. They both recognize they are only in trouble if they are in trouble with me. They know if they are not the aggressor, they are not in trouble with me. However, they have been beat so much by the liberal schools and liberal media message about “zero tolerance”, they were afraid to act.
Think about this for a moment- they failed to act as they have been trained because they were afraid of the administration! They were more afraid of punishment than they were of the attacker. They did not protect themselves (even defensively). They put “zero tolerance” before their own safety!
This is terrifying! Cops and trainers have for some time postulating cops were now hesitating rather than acting for fear of the repercussions! They put fear of civil or criminal litigation over their own safety! I never really put much stock in this theory based on my own attitudes towards an attacker. I do not hesitate. However, I think I an going to revise my position now. My own children have both separately failed to act for fear of administration! I can assure you I did not raise them this way. Also, my children are not pacifists by any means. They have a bulging share of innate aggression. They all excel in Krav Maga and are all quite admiringly aggressive in class.
So, to the heart here-
What so you all think?
What can we do?
Most importantly, how do I train my kids to react instinctively as trained rather than hesitate and consider whether or not they might get suspended.
Remember this- when seconds count, police (and teachers) are just minutes away!
Re: Zero Tolerance
quote SicPuppy:However, now comes the really scary part. When attacked, neither of my children responded as they have been trained. Both of my children told me the reason they did not respond as trained was they were afraid to get in trouble at school. They errrr afraid if getting suspended. They both recognize they are only in trouble if they are in trouble with me. They know if they are not the aggressor, they are not in trouble with me. However, they have been beat so much by the liberal schools and liberal media message about “zero tolerance”, they were afraid to act.It would help to know what level of threat your kids perceived. Getting pushed around and called names is a bit different than being hammer-fisted in the face or choked out. If the bullies were bothering them but your kids didn’t really believe they were in actual danger, they may have simply made a different risk/reward decision than you would have. In their minds, being suspended might have been a worse outcome that whatever they faced by not defending themselves. The fact that they didn’t act in these situations doesn’t necessarily mean that they would not act in a more dire situation. They may just draw the line in a different place than you would.
I have a lot of concerns about the zero tolerance rule too. Our kids haven’t faced bullying yet, but they are younger than yours and it could happen. There is a side of me that wants to see bullies get taught a lesson and sometimes it’s not easy to know exactly when it stops being true self defense and starts being “behavior modification.”
If you’re tempted to try to coach your kids along the lines of, “Next time, kick his ass,” make sure you’re all on the same page as to how serious the threat was and where you each draw the line before deciding to act.
Re: Zero Tolerance
quote tzrider:It would help to know what level of threat your kids perceived. Getting pushed around and called names is a bit different than being hammer-fisted in the face or choked out. If the bullies were bothering them but your kids didn’t really believe they were in actual danger, they may have simply made a different risk/reward decision than you would have. In their minds, being suspended might have been a worse outcome that whatever they faced by not defending themselves. The fact that they didn’t act in these situations doesn’t necessarily mean that they would not act in a more dire situation. They may just draw the line in a different place than you would.I have a lot of concerns about the zero tolerance rule too. Our kids haven’t faced bullying yet, but they are younger than yours and it could happen. There is a side of me that wants to see bullies get taught a lesson and sometimes it’s not easy to know exactly when it stops being true self defense and starts being “behavior modification.”
If you’re tempted to try to coach your kids along the lines of, “Next time, kick his ass,” make sure you’re all on the same page as to how serious the threat was and where you each draw the line before deciding to act.
Thank you for your reply.. In the name of brevity I didn’t get quite into everything.
The boy picking on my son allegedly takes MMA training and had been threatening to “kill” my son with it since last school year. They are 13 and the kid is just a punk bully, so I don’t think he intends to kill in the literal sense. However he is very aggressive.
In this instance, the boy threw a ball at my son three times and then charged him. He did the old tough guy “in your face” routine yelling with his nose about an inch from my son’s nose. He then put my son in a rear headlock. My son exricated himself by twisting out of it, not the way he has been trained, and with no counter-attack. The punk then did a shirt grab and cocked back his fist to punch. He lowered his arm slightly and looked around to see if a teacher was looking. He briefly let go and my son began to back away. Punk-boy then re-engaged with another shirt grab, cocked back his right arm and punched my boy dead in the mouth, leaving him with a 1/2″long compression laceration and contusion inside is lip along with a loose tooth.
Not life threatening I agree, but he knew this boy had been gunning for him since last year, so the threat was there and recognized. My son told me he did not want to hit the boy because he would get in trouble.
As far as where my line is drawn, I would have been up on shock and in defensive position when he charged me. My son only made himself smaller and did a tight cover. I would have either tried to retreat, or I might have pushed back when he was in my face. However, once he put hands on me and put me in a headlock, that would be about the time he lost his testicles and his filtrum.
My children all know where that line is, and we have trained and discussed “what if…” scenarios since they were old enough to understand.
As far as their abilities in Krav, they are prety good as kids go. If they were over 16, they would pass level 1 with no problem. So he has the skills to dispatch this bully quickly.
As far as nerve- they have that and more. Well my youngest daughter (11) probably would not fight back at this point, but my son is a fast, rough and tumble 13 year old with plenty of aggression of his own. He does not back down, but in this case he didn’t defend himself either. Rather than get in trouble, he basically let the kid attack and punch him. He did not even block.
I am not that “next time, kick his ass” father. But this was not just a name calling party either. Meet force with force, but one level higher. If a boy slaps you, you do not shoot him. However, you should remove his ability or his desire to slap you again. If he does, then perhaps he needs a testiclectomy and just couldn’t afford a doctor so he came to you on the cheap.
Re: Zero Tolerance
quote SicPuppy:Punk-boy then re-engaged with another shirt grab, cocked back his right arm and punched my boy dead in the mouth, leaving him with a 1/2″long compression laceration and contusion inside is lip along with a loose tooth.SicPup, that really sucks.
Has your son indicated on his own what he would do if faced with a similar situation in the future? His perspective may have changed a little bit after getting punched.
A couple of thoughts about the situation occur to me from a kid’s point of view. First, their brains aren’t fully developed yet and one thing kids don’t do especially well is generalize. They may be highly competent and even aggressive in the Krav training environment. They may have a rough strategy for how to handle themselves in other violent encounters. The school situation may have enough differences that they really don’t see it in the same way.
Second, on the idea that they’re “not in trouble unless they’re in trouble with you,” that may not be as true for them as it is for you. As they get older, other influences become more powerful. The trouble the school may cause may be less important to you than it is to them.
Then, of course there is the other possibility that could be hard to get anyone to talk about candidly: Was your son afraid of the other kid to the point he was unwilling to act?
Re: Zero Tolerance
quote tzrider:SicPup, that really sucks.Has your son indicated on his own what he would do if faced with a similar situation in the future? His perspective may have changed a little bit after getting punched.
A couple of thoughts about the situation occur to me from a kid’s point of view. First, their brains aren’t fully developed yet and one thing kids don’t do especially well is generalize. They may be highly competent and even aggressive in the Krav training environment. They may have a rough strategy for how to handle themselves in other violent encounters. The school situation may have enough differences that they really don’t see it in the same way.
Second, on the idea that they’re “not in trouble unless they’re in trouble with you,” that may not be as true for them as it is for you. As they get older, other influences become more powerful. The trouble the school may cause may be less important to you than it is to them.
Then, of course there is the other possibility that could be hard to get anyone to talk about candidly: Was your son afraid of the other kid to the point he was unwilling to act?
I will have to examine what you are saying about kids’ perception. It sounds logical and I want to figure that part out. Until now, I thought I understood my kids fairy well- or as a father could, but now I have to re-examine that- thanx for that! Lol
As far as my kids being more afraid of the school’s rules or my rules- I run a fairly strict household, and they have seen me go after the schools before if they screwed up with my kids, so my first guess is they will enjoy not obeying the school if daddy says they don’t have to. But, I could be wrong on that too. Geez, now ya have me second guessing everything… Lol
As for him being afraid- yeah it is certainly a possibility. I didn’t think so until you just questioned my whole existence… Lol. No, I thought of this before and I certainly hope, like all fathers I guess, that my children will have what it takes, when the time comes. My son can be pretty aggressive, and he has shown no signs of unreasonable fear before. He does not back down from this punk nor anyone else (and he is really little for his age). Being so small, nearly everyone is bigger than him, but it doesn’t stop him. He just will not hit anyone at school now since he has been disciplined and lectured ad infinitum about bullying, school violence, violence in general, going “hands on”, zero tolerance, etc He has hit others in the past at school and had been in trouble with the school and with me over it. Maybe he swung that particular pendulum too far to the left?
Stay safe!
Re: Zero Tolerance
quote parishd:The problem is that the zero tolerance policy treats every situation and every party the same, which they seldom are. A better policy would require the teachers/supervisors/administrators to make context-appropriate judgments and mete out consequences based on the actual circumstances of the altercation.There really are two clear sides to the bully/victim dynamic and schools need to take sides and in fact they do. Pretending to not take sides and relying on the zero tolerance nonsense, is just siding with the bullies, plain and simple.
Policies on bullying are mostly regulated/enforced at a school district level in Ontario. My wife is a teacher, and the programs are very comprehensive, and proactive. Your exactly right that the teachers/supervisors/principals are the ones who need to make the decisions in context or else you are sweeping the innocent in with the trouble makers. Bullying, or any type of physical engagement is not black and white.
But…this is all opinion until the exact wording of the “zero tolerance” policy is seen. Can this be posted, or a link to it to see what it says exactly. Education professionals with who know far more about the front line issues in schools and violence in school I”m sure would have already gone through the thoughts posted in this thread…seeing the actual policy will tell us all exactly what is at issue or whats agreeable/disagreeable.
Re: Zero Tolerance
quote TheCrownsOwn:Policies on bullying are mostly regulated/enforced at a school district level in Ontario. My wife is a teacher, and the programs are very comprehensive, and proactive. Your exactly right that the teachers/supervisors/principals are the ones who need to make the decisions in context or else you are sweeping the innocent in with the trouble makers. Bullying, or any type of physical engagement is not black and white.But…this is all opinion until the exact wording of the “zero tolerance” policy is seen. Can this be posted, or a link to it to see what it says exactly. Education professionals with who know far more about the front line issues in schools and violence in school I”m sure would have already gone through the thoughts posted in this thread…seeing the actual policy will tell us all exactly what is at issue or whats agreeable/disagreeable.
I am not so sure there is an exact definition… I think it is more of a concept… A poorly implemented, knee jerk reaction, politically correct concept.
I have seen major disparities in how different school systems, or even different principals interpret it.
Some have gone really overboard and charged kindergartners with sexual harrassment for kissing a girl in class, or called in the police if a small child has a temper tantrum. Anecdotally, there was a small child- 1st or 2nd grade- that was suspended because he drew a picture of a gun!
In the US, there is no central school board at the federal level, so even if there were a precise definition, it wouldn’t matter much because just about every county and large sized city has their own school board, and they make the rules for their schools.
Re: Zero Tolerance
Hmm, being Navy and seeing “zero tolerance” I thought this was a drug thread. I can see it is not.
That said, bullying really irks me. I wish I had KM training as a child. I did not, and I do remember overbearing school admin-types not effectively handling the bullies. It is precisely that the bullies don’t follow the rules while the good kids get punished for following them. Personally, I did not get bullied much more than the usual talk.
Good luck, SicPuppy, in reprogramming your children’s response. It can be done, I think.
Re: Zero Tolerance
I went to a Jesuit-run Catholic High School in the 60’s.They had a zero violence tolerance.It applied to the students,not the staff.If you were caught in a fight,both of you went to the disciplinarian’s office.He had a 2 inch wide leather belt that he’d beat the crap out of both students.
We soon learned that if you’re ‘called-out’,take it off campus.My algebra teacher was also the soccer coach.If you acted out in his class,he’d bring you to the front of the class,have you bend over,& kick you hard enough to lift you off the ground.Back then,if you were punished at school & told your parents,they’d whack you again for acting up.
Yes,I went through some bullying episodes growing up.I regret to this day those times that I didn’t fight back,damned the consequences.
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