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Re: Basic Strikes not fast enough the Krav way?
quote DKatman:I agree with you completely. Thanks a lot for sharing that. That was great. You are great.;):
Dave
rofl2 Dave, you are a quick study.
Re: Basic Strikes not fast enough the Krav way?
quote iMike:I was also wondering about the same question as OP, but the answers provided here cover the topic well.I wonder for those who have experience in boxing, do they do punches with pivoting and shoulder twists like we learn in krav maga? Boxers are probably the best to look up to for the right kind of punches
Boxing may not be the best reference. Remember that boxing is a sport, and unless you win by knockout, a weak-ass jab that lands counts one point just like a full-power cross.
I took boxing for a few years before starting KM and you definitely still rotate on your punches. In the case of a jab, not so much to increase power, but to extend your range. For a cross, it greatly increases both range and power.
But there is one thing our KM instructors teach much differently than my boxing coach – when you fire off 3 or 4 jabs in a row, our KM instructors want us to fully rotate back to the hips-squared position, so each jab gets full rotation. They didn’t teach that in boxing – the goal was to land 3 or 4 of them in shortest time possible, so the first one gets rotation, the rest end up being mainly an arm punch. Actually, the hips are still rotating, but not fully back to the hips-squared position used in KM. They may also emphasize it more in KM since not everyone is strong enough to throw a hard punch just with arm strength. Sometimes when women first start coming to class, that’s all they use is arm punches, and most of them have weak arm strength. There’s literally no need to even hold a tombstone pad. Their punches deliver a lot more force once they start using the correct rotation. There is one girl that can punch much harder than some of the guys in fact.
So at KM practice, I use the full rotation and reset. In a real fight, I’ll likely shoot out single jabs with full rotation to get the longest range, but if I get an opening to land a bunch of them, I’ll probably revert back to the boxing style rapid-fire jabs because while they may not be as strong as a full rotation jab, they’re still hard enough to cause damage, and I could land twice as many in the same timespan.
Re: Basic Strikes not fast enough the Krav way?
You mustn’t think of punching in isolation either…
Some quick jabs/crosses followed up by some groin/leg kicks and knees and back again…
Attacking multiple targets.
Re: Basic Strikes not fast enough the Krav way?
quote Kirsten:Keep in mind, Krav Maga is a reality based system, not a martial art. While it is fine to cross train, keep in mind we are trying to stay within the principles of Krav Maga for self-defense. If its a boxing match, then yes, if its a TKD sparring match then look to TKD for help… for self-defense purposes boxing may not be the best answer to all the questions on striking. A boxing stance for example is more bladed. So using a boxing stance can create some problems as the Krav Maga stance is keeping your hips square to your attacker. I personally am a fan of boxing drills and padwork, but I use my KM / BRS stance and not a boxing stance and don’t pivot. However I did pivot when I was first learning Krav Maga, but dropped it later on. So don’t stress too much if your doing it, or not doing it… Like Brent said, its all acceptable.But back to the initial post, I am not sure why you are pivoting on a left and right straight… I maybe misunderstanding. Your back leg heel should be up slightly and you may (as your hips rotate with your shoulders as you make the puch) experience your back leg pivoting naturally. Sometimes we explain it like its “putting out a cigarette”. But it occurs naturally and you shouldn’t really have to think about it.
I am glad the Bas video helped out! Thanks for posting it.
Just wanted to inteject here. See that putting out the cigarette motion doesn’t happen naturally for me at all.
Neither does dancing. It is not natural for me at all. I have read all of the posts and appreciate them. You are right, I have practiced this slowly time and time again and it is becoming second nature…but with martial arts shoes and the mats it feels like it is much harder to pivot than I can on street shoes at home…..just an observation!
Re: Basic Strikes not fast enough the Krav way?
I want to kind of take this back. I just stood up and punched how I would punch untrained. I did get some pivot in there…although I don’t know if it’s because I am now trained. I think that something else is at play here. It could even be the rigid tae kwon do stances that I have in the back of my head. Anyways, I am going to get better. Thank you for all of the posts and for your time.
Re: Basic Strikes not fast enough the Krav way?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_gq3s3FMsg&feature=related
Here’s part of the Bas Video from the workout CD. Some good info right off the bat, it helped me.
Re: Basic Strikes not fast enough the Krav way?
….and not to turn this into a Bas Rutten thread or anything but this also goes into rotation and position re: kicks.
Re: Basic Strikes not fast enough the Krav way?
Coming from a weapon art background, I really like to utilize very light, mobile footwork- when weapons are involved your ability to stay mobile on your feet is very important- if someone’s going to hit you in the knee with a stick, your leg is going to have to move or get hit- blocking without moving the leg is notoriously unreliable for this in my experience and takes away a great opportunity to hit someone while they’re attacking. Using the pivoting on the ball of the foot can set you up to explode into other movement and can be good for throwing strikes on the move. This type of movement required some deprogramming of a lot of traditional karate-style stancework. I’ll mention however that the front leg pivot inward as in a traditional left hook is not too useful in this context but is kind of similar to a type of footwork called a pekiti tirsia takeoff, which is a great tool for moving and closing in stickfighting.
Re: Basic Strikes not fast enough the Krav way?
IMO – no pivot, no power
If you are standing in square stance with no movement from your hips or shoulders you might as well be practicing Wing Chun….
Practice makes perfect with respect to pivot and rotation. It will feel awkward, slow and clunky to start off with but stick with it and you will be able to punch with speed an power.
Use the ‘Pacman’ as an example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7dB_4yXPv4
Notice how his tecnique is so refined that is his twisting and pivot is almost imperceptible. Yes, there are a lot of shots where he is just ‘speed working’ but the shots with power come from using the body as whole and not just relying on arm strength.
There’s also a programme called ‘Fightmasters’ which studies the techniques employed by the likes of Randy Couture, Baas Rutten and Tito Ortiz. There’s an interesting section on ‘kinetic linking’ in punches which is very helpful
Re: Basic Strikes not fast enough the Krav way?
And there you will see Bas pre-pivots his foot on a round kick… and you will not see him pivot his front foot when he punches on his hooks. Ask Jason Delucia if Bas produces any power on his left or right to the body… he spent more than a month in a hospital after Bas broke his liver in a fight. 🙂 So pivot does not always = power as Brent has already pointed out.
Both of the videos are on Bas’ sytem website at http://www.basruttensystems.com if anybody wants to check them out. Not enough coffee yet to grab the links and repost.
Ah I should add that Jaspthecat is correct about arm strength not being enough, but you can create torque in your body without the use of a pivot. As for the boxing video, I would rather hit once and have it work, then hit 50 times and hope my points add up to a win. We are not boxing- we are fighting for our lives.
Re: Basic Strikes not fast enough the Krav way?
I still think it’s fair to say that Pivot does equal power but no pivot does not equal no power.
As eluded to, good striking with power involves whole body mechanics and in the case of Western boxing, Muay Thai, MMA (which utilises boxing and MT) power is generated through a movement of the body, not just the arms. Sometimes the pivot is seen, sometimes it’s not, but in all effective striking there is a foot component in the movement. (a push through the foot to the floor)
In this respect, I think it’s good for people to use a pivot mechanism so as to learn to involve the whole body in a strike. A ‘push through the floor’, it’s essentially Newton’s law in practice ie action = reaction.
As in an eariler post, I would encourage people to look at the Chinese internal arts eg Tai Chi, Xing Yi, Ba gua as the power generated in their strikes is wholly based on the internal vs the external and would give you an idea of how the body can be used to strike.
WRT boxing, the majority of strikes are setup and delivered to effect maximum damage. Yes the jab is used defensively but in many a good boxer, it is also an effective damage maker rather than just a disruptor. Boxers are good punchers and this skill translates well inside or outside of the ring. A boxer would hit once and make it work in an SD situation and then probably hit them 50 times further for good measure.
Re: Basic Strikes not fast enough the Krav way?
I guess then I will never be convinced… I don’t believe boxers to be the most effective style of striking for the purposes of self-defense, nor the “chinese internal arts”. I had a Judge call me to chambers after trial once to tell me he could knock me out with some chinese thingy… (he knew I trained).. didn’t work. And the trial was over, so I didn’t even bother faking it for him…
Bas tells a great story about a “one finger death touch” that didn’t work on him either, and I will leave out the name of the very well know instructor… so, no- no disrespect but I will have to just manage with my no pivot striking style, since I have seen Bas use that effectively.
Re: Basic Strikes not fast enough the Krav way?
quote Kirsten:Ask Jason Delucia if Bas produces any power on his left or right to the body… he spent more than a month in a hospital after Bas broke his liver in a fight. 🙂I take it this is the infamous liver-breaking bout:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPUTp_XTt-M
D*mn! … it seems Delucia brought it on himself though..
The commentary is priceless
quote Kirsten:I had a Judge call me to chambers after trial once to tell me he could knock me out with some chinese thingy… (he knew I trained).. didn’t work. And the trial was over, so I didn’t even bother faking it for him…Lol!
Re: Basic Strikes not fast enough the Krav way?
Well (if) he did I am sure that oneness would have a
el guapo talk with him.i can’t believe he even said that to you.
Pivot or not krav strikes are plenty fast enough,it just takes practice.
I sures a hell would not flury punch in a fight.Iwant them to know
that they got punched or kicked.Re: Basic Strikes not fast enough the Krav way?
Hmm… damn… Well Bas has quite a bit of upper body mass, I see him pushing off the back foot and he does get some rotation but it sure doesn’t look like he needs the pivot. Now on the other hand I’m 5.7″ & 156 lbs soaking wet, My punches without hip rotation are like a light breeze soundly buffeting my target, when I get full rotation and extension I can tell there is much more force connecting with the target I can feel the sting through my wraps and or bag gloves.
I feel comfortable with the power and speed I get with a full pivot but I also started learning these concepts a while back in JKD.
What works for someone else may not work for everyone, learn your own Krav, I believe this is the best way for me to train but I also have not had a physical altercation in 7 years. If or when I do Iíll let’cha know how my way held up for me?
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