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Last night we learned choke from front with a push…as we were drilling I found quite often that my partner’s momentum would carry here right past me…often resulting with her landing on the ground a few feet from me (my partner also happens to be my girlfriend….let me just say she was none to happy about how many times she ended up on the ground).
She asked me a question later that I thought I’d bounce of all y’alls. In a situation in a parking lot for instance if she was attacked that way, and when she rotated the attacker’s momentum carried him right by and he hits the ground….does she run or does she try to engage and finsish him off before he gets to his feet? We’ll assume there are no weapons.
My response to her was that unless he was close enough to grab her that she should escape…that’s the point…difuse the situation and get out. Run and yell for help. Thoughts?
Re: Choke from front with a push
I say curb the son of a bee-octh, but that’s just me. See how much fight he has left in him when he’s spitting up his teeth and blood.
No, but seriously, she should probably at least be prepared for some follow up combatives.
In our class, when we learned the front choke with a push, we always follow up with an elbow to the face and some kicks or knees to the groin, if possible.Re: Choke from front with a push
I think she should apologize and help him back up on his feet… actually I liked the front choke with push,if you’re lucky they run right into your counter “elbow”, if they fall past you, I say RUN in the opposite direction if possible.
Re: Choke from front with a push
If the attacker lands close, a qucik stomp to the kidney or a kick to the groin is a good thing – other things pending……
However, I agree that the point is to get out of danger, so unless there is a chance of them getting up and pursuing I say get the heck out of Dodge. Ours is not to punish even if they deserve it.
For me this is a tough one. In Law Enforcement, everything has to finish with the bad guy in restraints, even if he’s dead at the end. So off duty and such, it’s a real kicker trying to change mindests.
Re: Choke from front with a push
I appreciate the input. We learned to catch an arm and follow up with some elbows as well….but if he ends up going by you and hitting the ground then you can’t really do that.
If it’s me, I’m with Nick…I likely make the guy pay for attacking, and use my foot to increase his Dental bill and help motivate him to never attack anyone again. :chair:
For her, I’m with Cmetal….cut and run.
Re: Choke from front with a push
I’m a fan of staying on them, even for a little bit as they go by. Why give up the advantage – get some shots in. Even for her, if he goes down, what insures that he is going to get hurt, or isn’t much faster than her and gets up and runs her down? She’s not going to have time to figure that out in the heat of the moment. I’m not necessarily advocating a re-engagement, but rather stay with him and get a solid stomp in – making sure you hurt him so you can safely make space instead of hoping he won’t get up and chase her down.
Re: Choke from front with a push
Depends on the situation though, chances are he will not be disabled and will jump right back up and go after you which ends up in chasing.
Never turn your back to your opponent until you can be sure your back is safe. Incase they have a weapon…. you never know what people have on them.
Re: Choke from front with a push
I don’t mean to get off topic, but I feel it’s important to note something here:
I am definitely in favor of being sure the get-a-way is clear before disengaging. However, there is the point of articulating your justification for the level of force used. While it is significantly less invasive on the civilian to justify this, current case law trends seem to be moving toward judging a civilian with training such as KM more like an off duty officer/deputy. This is obviously NOT something you want to have to think about in the heat of it, but must be thought about prior to and resolved in one’s mind BEFORE they find themselves faced with such a decision.
Having said that: It is still better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. But even better than that is to take care of a situation approriately and the L.E. report reading in such a way as to avoid court all together, criminally or civilly. By civil court I am not referring to a lawsuit by the dink whose butt you kicked (which is also possible), but rather by a detective who wishes to hold you civilly liable because his ego was hurt when you beat the criminal charges via good articulation of good justification for the level of force you chose.
Just something to consider…..
Re: Choke from front with a push
If a weapon is being used against me, even a stick, that’s my absolution for handing you your arse. If it’s just little girlie fistacuffs with a dumbass in a bar, then I’d use a more restrained methodology in dealing with him/her. A few joint manipulations would certainly do the trick to get him/her to the ground so we can have a real nice talk about the laws of civility with your fellowman.
Re: Choke from front with a push
A detective [agent of the state] has no standing to hold you civilly liable if you beat the criminal charge, so I don’t know where you are going with that.
The standard is a reasonable person standard in all jurisdictions for all persons.
The legal standard in most jurisdictions for self defense is that you can defend yourself unless/until you can escape/disengage in absolute safety.
If someone attacks you with a choke from the front with a push, defend yourself until the fight is finished or you can make space (and don’t hesitate by thinking about the legal stuff).
Whoa-wait-a-hold-it! That’s what Krav Maga teaches! 🙂
Re: Choke from front with a push
I understand your misconception, but the reasonable person standard is not the only standard in all jurisdictions/venues. The current trend is moving toward the reasonable officer standard according to the national use of force symposium in Nevada last year.
A detective can in many states, MO as one example, pursue civil liability in a case where doing so would increase the likely hood of a person suing you being successful. These types of civil hearings are occuring in various places in the US due to bad legilation from the circuit courts (such as the 9th Circuit Court). As in the cases of
n Whitley v. Albers, 475 U.S. 312 (1986)
and
n Hudson v. McMillian, 112 S.Ct. 995 (1992)
both of which the US Supreme Court fortunately overturned the decisions of the 9th Circus (my opinion) Court. Placing MANY Use of Force decisions into the category of the Resonable Experienced Officer standard.While the reasonable person standard was/is still used widely nationally, case law will soon set enough precedent as to change that unless things drastically swing the other direction. This will especially affect those are trained/training in Reality Based Systems because of the swing toward judging those civilians as if they were off duty officers/deputies.
I did not bring this up so as to create controversy, only to point out that one need consider the possible consequences of their chosen level of force. I do not mean to sound like a know-it-all, but I am a Use of Force Instructor in a multiple Agency Academy and we were recently alerted to this trend late last year by a leading Use of Force law firm in the country:
Hill Law Office, Maple Grove, MN 55369Re: Choke from front with a push
quote Nickolas Cook:If a weapon is being used against me, even a stick, that’s my absolution for handing you your arse. If it’s just little girlie fistacuffs with a dumbass in a bar, then I’d use a more restrained methodology in dealing with him/her. A few joint manipulations would certainly do the trick to get him/her to the ground so we can have a real nice talk about the laws of civility with your fellowman.:woohoo: Wonderfully put!!!!
Nick…you and I DEFINITELY have to drink some beers sometime :beer: we are of the same mindset!
Re: Choke from front with a push
I am in FULL agreement that if one feels their life in in eminent danger, do WHATEVER is necessary to stop the aggressor. I have a few personal rules about such: 1) if I must bite them, my teeth WILL meet in the middle 2) Fight until there is not longer a threat and lastly 3) If I see a gun or knife, take their life. Now having said that, all of those are subject to change according to the circumstance. The aggressor decides which goal I accomplish by his/her level of aggression and by what means he/she intends to hurt me.
One last thought on that – OJ beat the ciminal charges, but was found guilty in a civil case. The trend in many states now is to make it possible for L.E. to be able to file the charges in civil suit. If they win, you have a conviction in civil court – sort of, it’s a bit more complicated than tah, but this is pretty close. This then leaves you WIDE open to litigation from the dink who attacked you from which you will have little if any insulation.Re: Choke from front with a push
….and I’m guessing telling that dink that you’ll give him another arse whuppin’ probably won’t sway him from filing the lawsuit…..I hate dinks!!
Re: Choke from front with a push
My guess is you are correct sir! Not much for dinks myself – especially these days. I used to be able to put up with more than I have patience for now. So when dinks get froggy, it’s time to go froggin’! LOL
Bull1189 – I don’t mean to step on your toes. For the most part you’re right, but not for long as the tide is quickly turning against anyone who believes in their right and freedom to defend themselves and their loved ones. My sincere hope is that this stops before good people like you find themselves without legal recourse where all this is concerned. Even still – better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6 – right?
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