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Re: Choke from front with a push
quote Old Grappler:Last night we learned choke from front with a push…as we were drilling I found quite often that my partner’s momentum would carry here right past me…often resulting with her landing on the ground a few feet from me (my partner also happens to be my girlfriend….let me just say she was none to happy about how many times she ended up on the ground).She asked me a question later that I thought I’d bounce of all y’alls. In a situation in a parking lot for instance if she was attacked that way, and when she rotated the attacker’s momentum carried him right by and he hits the ground….does she run or does she try to engage and finsish him off before he gets to his feet? We’ll assume there are no weapons.
My response to her was that unless he was close enough to grab her that she should escape…that’s the point…difuse the situation and get out. Run and yell for help. Thoughts?
I think that every situation will be different. If the fall only scrapped up his elbow – then that would not keep him from chasing her, but if it sends him 10 feet away and ko’s him, then there is her chance to disengage and get away. It isn’t just about removing the threat (in this case the choke with the push), but eliminating the attacker’s ability to attack. Only she would be able to judge whether or not the attacker is eliminated, so I don’t think there is a right or wrong answer to your question.
Re: Choke from front with a push
Cottonwood,
First, both of the cases you cited are irrelevant to this discussion. Both deal with claims that corrections officers violated prisoners’ 8th Amendment right to be free of cruel and unusual punishment. (in one of them, the officer beat a prisoner while another officer held the prisoner down – umm, not reasonable the court held. Well no kidding!) This is **NOT** applicable to a civilian Krav Maga student who has been attacked. First, they are not agents of the state, and second, they are not quelling a prison riot (the other case you cited).
What you are doing here is extremely dangerous. You are taking cases that are inapplicable in the context we are discussing them and implying through your analysis that they should give pause to somone defending themselves – in this case a hypothetical woman who has been attacked with a choke with a push from the front. That is just wrong, and can lead a student to hesitate when hesitation shouldn’t be there. Constitutional standards for government agents using force are different, and constitutional standards do not apply to private citizens.
As I said before, the standard for Krav Maga – finish the fight or make space (when it is safe to do so) is what a person should do. This standard closely matches the standard for every jurisdiction (state standard, btw, not federal, which is another reason why it makes no sense for you to be quoting federal case law that interprets the federal constitution).
To put it in simpler terms – if you are scared this psycho is going to hurt you, then fight until you can escape. The law is on your side.
And, if we are throwing creditentials around, I’m a law prof. Which means, among other things, I know how to read a law case. If you want to throw cases my way, you’d be well advised to make sure they say what you claim they say. This isn’t such a problem for me, because I can figure such misdirection out. However, a civilian student perusing this site who isn’t trained in that way won’t know the difference, and therein lies the danger with what you are doing.
None of that has nothing to do with how I teach my students in Krav to defend themselves. It does, however, give me great comfort in knowing that the curriculum I teach is in accord with the law.
So, in keeping with my original response in this post: stay with the attacker, don’t give up the advantage you created by effectively executing the defense and strike to insure you can escape in safety.
Re: Choke from front with a push
I don’t wish to argue, my point was not the cases alone, but the trend to which they have led in regard to the reasonable person standard. If that was unclear, then I apologize but the point is valid. According to Use of Force attorneys that I have spoken with, these landmark cases are already being used to set lower court precedence against trained civilians using the Reasonable Experienced Officer standard. This will mean Officers can be used as expert witnesses in both criminal and civil cases and ther reasonble person who is in question (the one attacked) will be viewed under those guidelines.
By the way, I was NOT throwing credentials around, simply stating I have done my research and it is current and from qualified professionals. If any credentials are to be known they are certinaly not mine as I am not the source of my information, only the passer of said information.
I am not in any way implying or stating that those Supreme Court decisions directly affect civilians, only how they may be judged if the trend continues as it currently is.
Have I somehow offended you, this feels like you are taking it personally.
You may also note, that I agreed with you in regard to how to handle the situation, based on the information which is given by the attacker. Like when I said, fight until there in no longer a threat……not a qoute but pretty close to what I said.
Re: Choke from front with a push
Cottonwood,
I really think we are talking apples and oranges here. There is no argument from me that what you are saying is something to take seriously from an officer’s standpoint.However, I sincerely believe your comments are (a) incorrect; and (b)dangerous when talking about a civilian student wanting to learn self defense. You need to read those cases, neither of them are applicable in this context. If you want to tell me there is a trend in cases that changes the reasonable person standard for a Krav Maga student, then give me a case that says that. Don’t give me a case where a prison guard beats down a restrained prisoner.
There are a lot of untrained people who come here for serious discussion about self defense, and it is unhelpful to them to misquote and missapply the law. Yes, I do take that seriously. I need my women students to fight back when attacked, not to think “hmmm, I wonder if I’m going to jail because I read this thing on a forum about self defense that I’m held to the same standard as a Sheriff’s deputy. . . . “
Re: Choke from front with a push
Fair enough; I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
It not my intention to scare anyone, but only to inform as I am informed. Even though the cases are probably not being argued correctly, it IS happening. I cannot change that. I am not as connected as yourself to the legal profession and can only reiterate what I hear.
I hope for all intents and purposes you are right. May we please just move on now? I did not intend for this to create such a controversy, but only to make a valid simple point. Fight to the point you can escape, then escape otherwise you may cross legal boundaries. My apology if I somehow did not say that in enough ways for even the most novice of persons to understand.
On the basis of what Old Grappler originally posted, beat the **** (fill in with whatever you wish) out of them then run!
Re: Choke from front with a push
Not sure who left this on my reputation- “check your d**n facts, you know d**n well you’re just trying to stir the pot”
But it is really unfair, I have even spoken with Bull1189 in PM’s and we have agreed that this is important to know, even if this was not the right place to debate it.
Maybe this person should check with all concerned before defaming others. It’s just not professional…..
Re: Choke from front with a push
Interesting thread. thumbsup
As a Krav student, I think it is important to consider what could happen after you’ve successfully defended your life, when a broken & bleeding dirtbag is at your feet, or later if/when the police come knocking because the perp is in a coma or died.
I’m NOT saying that Krav students should have second thoughts about defense of their lives, or the lives of their loved ones. There should never be hesitation at that moment for any reason.
But do spend time considering how your statements to law enforcement personnel may be taken out of context in the unfortunate event of legal proceedings (against you). There is that chance that your adrenaline will still be pumping, you’ll be tired, possibly injured, scared, in shock, who knows what else. Without a plan, you may say things that, under the circumstances are justified, but to jurors in a quiet, air-conditioned courtroom, could sound like something else.
I guess I’m saying that Krav gives us a Plan of Action when the time comes for defending our lives. IMO it is worthwhile to spend an hour or two developing a Plan of Action for when the nice person with the badge has their notepad open and is doing their job: asking questions, gathering facts. Without a plan, a person could say the wrong thing, causing all sorts of unecessary headaches down the road.
Sean
Re: Choke from front with a push
Well said Gitano! One of the very first things I remember hearing from my instructors were these simple words – Officer, I was in FEAR FOR MY LIFE. That sucker is ingrained in my brain.
It’s important like it’s been stated to defend yourself and when that opening of escape comes, TAKE IT. Get you and/or your loved ones the hell out of there.thumbsup If he/she’s still not down, defend some more but DON”T stay there longer than you have to.
Re: Choke from front with a push
In my class and the Combative Tactics class I take as well, we learn not to hit the person in the trachea…unless it’s life or death. Yours or your loved ones. I’d rather face a hearing than a casket. And I sure as hell won’t hesitate to take someone out that has every intention of doing so to a loved one. When it comes to that, law be damned. In any aggressive situation good judgment should always be there. But letting fear of future arrest stop you from protecting yourself or your family should be the least of your considerations.
The smartest thing to do is research your particular state’s or country’s laws in regards to reasonable force in self defense and at least be educated and not have to guess. Be prepared to do the worst, but be aware of the consequences.
And anyone taking legal advice from a message board forum should seriously NEVER EVER do so. Take responsibility.Re: Choke from front with a push
Mara and Gitano,
I tried to give you each kudos, but apparenlty I have been ‘spreading the love’ too much and I could not add positive rep for you.
You all did a great job of summing this up! At least in my mind anyway.
Re: Choke from front with a push
Thanks MJ. :):
I first learned of this concept during CCW training here in Arizona. One of our instructors was a retired detective, so we were able to get his POV on situations where deadly force was used. Essentially, if there is a dead body on the ground, and you put it there (so to speak), you’ll have some explaining to do. Very enlightening.
And the key phrase driven home was, as you stated, “Officer, I was in FEAR FOR MY LIFE”.
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