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Hey, while we are all getting along and extending invitations, can I come, too? 😀
By the way, I like the idea of feigning unconsciousness, although it’s a risk to take, as you lose valuable seconds that you could spend fighting. But if there’s a bit of a struggle maybe (maybe the choke isn’t on 100% correctly), but strikes don’t seem to work well enough, maybe this could be an option.
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GiantkillerA proper rear naked choke will destroy you in seconds, but most people out there DON’T know how to do a rear naked choke properly or as quickly as we do. Many DO leave their fingers exposed, and leave enough of a gap for you to continue breathing a little longer than normal.
Sorry but I could resist no longer…….
I have to agree with Ryan. You can never convey a lack of hope to your students. You must instill in them a deep understanding of the severity of the attack to be sure. However to suggest to them that all is lost is counter productive. The RNC is a lot more difficult to apply in street because of the nature of attacks. I mean how exactly would you be able to become a victim of this attack? Has anyone not involved as an Law Enforcement agent ever seen this used in street effecitively?
I have not. So the reality here is that students must be taught to fight at all costs. The only reason that this is even a topic is because of the popularity of MMA. Every guy who has taken one class at their local “Gracie school” is now a BJJ expert. As a Kravist I am only encouraged to train harder and stay connected to the principles of the system. Most BJJ schools do not train for street. The application of the RNC in a street confrontation is much different than that of a dojo or ring. So keep that in mind.
Ryan.
Do you ever get out to Las Vegas?
I normally make it to Vegas about once a year, for the MAIA show. I didn’t this year, because I thought last year sucked, and next year it’s in Orlando, so I’m not sure about the next visit.
quote Psyops:You can never convey a lack of hope to your students.However to suggest to them that all is lost is counter productive.
The RNC is a lot more difficult to apply in street because of the nature of attacks.
Has anyone not involved as an Law Enforcement agent ever seen this used in street effecitively?
So the reality here is that students must be taught to fight at all costs.
I think this thread is harder to get out of than a rnc…
Ok. Here’s the scenario as presented in this particular thread:
You are *in* a properly applied rnc. How do you get out?
It’s not “You’re in a sloppy rnc”.
It’s not “How difficult is it to apply in the street?”
It’s not “How should students respond to a rnc attempt?”Nobody said students should just throw their hands up and start crying while they wait for unconsciousness. Of course fight back. Do whatever you can. Something, anything! But that falls waaaay short of being an actual textbook procedure to address the original question: You’re in a rnc, how do u get out? You could add ‘scream’ or ‘blow a whistle’ to the list of possible defensive tactics but I’d be surprised to ever see that as course material in krav.
When you train for responding to a near ambush in the military, even the guy standing in the killzone of a claymore goes thru the motions of still being alive for the sake of training. I agree it’s good to instill a sense of hope in your students. I disagree they should be taught they are indestructable and will always have a second chance. Some situations warrant the instructor disclosing the grim reality of a predicament they could avoid: The defense for a rnc comes *before* it is sunk in properly.
But of course… do whatever you can. After this many posts, the general concensus still remains at: teach the students to have hope, maybe you can grab a finger, maybe you can poke their eye, maybe stomp their foot, maybe it isn’t applied right, it’s rare to see a rnc in the street etc etc etc.
What’s missing is a concrete answer to this: you’re in a properly applied rnc and have 3-5 seconds to get out of it.I said before, I think we’re arguing from different starting points.
Well said VWR, its just some people are fooling themselves, maybe they have never been shown a PROPER RNC, go join a BJJ club, then try to escape this choke, my wife who weighs 8 stone, choked a 17 stone military guy unconcious on a seminar in 6 sec, ( we asked the guy’s permission, and told him to try escaping ) I have to rest my case !!!!!
Also as VWR states , this is about a correctly applied RNC, not a RNC that has been shown by someone who no idea how to correctly apply this choke.Craig.
Submissions 101 explanation of how to escape from a standing rnc. Note it begins with getting your hands between your neck and the attackers arm. In this video, I don’t think anyone is going to mistake this scenario for what it would really be like. The attacker won’t simply be standing there for demonstration purposes, allowing victim to talk casually and maintain an upright stance. The demonstrator has plenty of room to get his hands in and shrug to block the hold… they are definitely not starting from where I would consider the choke to be “sunk in”.
I would assume (if it were me), I’d be locked in too tight for this to work, and would be arched back to put more pressure into the hold and keep the victim off balance. 3-5 seconds of them trying to open their airway (carotid artery actually) is all I need.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGehFPbYNIoReally liked their demonstration on how to apply one too. This isn’t standing, but it shows a rnc applied step by step. The last 40 seconds or so shows the “street” version. No fingers to grab, no eyes to poke, no gaps or loose sloppy misplaced arms to exploit. You’re locked in… nitey nite. 😉
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Byyh5PZVBkLotar, I believe it 100% about your wife choking out the larger dude. It’s something I try to tell my wife as well. I too believe in building the hopes of someone I’m trying to help, and that extends to telling my wife she’s quite capable of taking out a much larger attacker. It works both ways tho… I can’t tell her this will work for her if I’m also going to tell her it won’t work when the attacker does it. Once you get them locked in, you win. Unfortunately, and realistically, the reverse is true too. So fight hard.
Just watched the Youtube RNC escape, I’m just sat here laughing my arse off !!!
Talk about being complient, HA HA .
Yeah, lotar, that’s it. I’ve hosted Bas Rutten 4x, Randy Couture, Rich Franklin, Hermes Franca, Kurt Pellegrino, Rich Dimitri, Richard Grillat, Jon Pascal, et al, have a black belt in BJJ and sambo teaching at my school, and I’m certified in Shamrock Submission Fighting, but I’ve never been “shown” a proper RNC (I really miss the “rolling eyes” icon.)
As I said, you guys go about your training however you like, but your wife choking out some dude at a seminar doesn’t prove a thing to me.
BTW, the original question was, “What is a good defense against a rear naked choke while standing?”
Also, you guys are anywhere from 3-10 seconds to unconsciousness in this thread, so you allow for that much variation (based on what, I’m not sure, since you don’t seem to acknowledge variables), yet you don’t allow for the possibility of making a defense, since all RNC’s and defenders seem to be created equally. Lotar, just because I’m curious, did the guy that weighed twice as much as your wife slam her into a wall or onto the floor? Did this “military guy” have any training?
Ryan youv’e had a lot of good guys teaching at your gym, ERM !! AND !
The military guy, being in the military obviosly had not some but a lot of training , he didn’t get chance to slam her anywere, I don’t know you personally or your skill level ( although I’m sure I’ll find out ) but I know a lot of gyms host top fighters , doesn’t mean the guy hosting knows shit.
I like this forum, but for me this thread is done.Craig.
quote Ryan:BTW, the original question was, “What is a good defense against a rear naked choke while standing?”I’ve been to your website, your credentials aren’t in question as far as I’m concerned. But I’m still waiting for the answer to that question. It seems any defense talked about requires certain variables of error on the part of the attacker for the defense to work, or (as I’ve been saying) quick response *before* the choke is set. When answering “what is a good defense” for anything, a reply of “maybe this will work, maybe that, or you might be able to do this” just doesn’t cut it for a sound defense. Why? You wont have time to go thru a list of maybes before passing out.
When someone asks about a particular defense, it’s dangerous to assume the attacker is going to do it wrong therefore you’ll have time and opportunity to defend against it. That’s why we don’t train where the attacker pulls a gun on someone and is holding it backwards. That’s just silly.
Back to agreeing to disagree. I’m still standing on the position that the “good defense” for a rnc is to react before it is sunk in (properly). 🙂
Ok,
The best defense for any attack is to react before the attack is at full strength. Is this some profound self defense technique? Of course it’s always better to react as soon as possible. Again is thise really an MMA vs Krav question? Or a BJJ vs Krav question? I mean it would be better to post it as such than to attempt to discredit Ryan. If your position is that the “only” way to defend against this is to react then I disagree. Is this attack lethal? Yes! It would no doubt be one of the worst attacks to be faced with. Without question! But to resign yourself to defeat is never an option for a Kravist!
quote Psyops:Ok,The best defense for any attack is to react before the attack is at full strength. Is this some profound self defense technique? Of course it’s always better to react as soon as possible. Again is thise really an MMA vs Krav question? Or a BJJ vs Krav question? I mean it would be better to post it as such than to attempt to discredit Ryan. If your position is that the “only” way to defend against this is to react then I disagree. Is this attack lethal? Yes! It would no doubt be one of the worst attacks to be faced with. Without question! But to resign yourself to defeat is never an option for a Kravist!
My goal has not been to discredit anyone.
Obviously disagreement isn’t encouraged if it means debating with an instructor. I find that out once more. Again, nobody said students should concede defeat at any point. Keep fighting sure, but I think we all know what happens if the rnc is applied correctly. In the class or in a web forum, I appreciate the honesty from those who are in a position of instruction: if certain things happen, you’re toast. Conversly, if you do certain things correctly, they will work for you.
It’s a two way street where sometimes enthusiasm from the instructor leads students to think they are bullet proof. I’m not saying I don’t appreciate the motivation behind the instruction, but I think there’s a point where it becomes unrealistic. This was one of those times… but I wouldn’t hesitate to train under Ryan’s leadership. It’s a moot point until it really happens… and just a discussion.
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