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I have never been in a situation that required me to elbow someone. Having trained in KM for several years I always thought they were an excellent close range tool. Recently I read (probably on the board somewhere) and heard a commentator say they were just a way to cut but not cause any real damage. Has anyone had occasion to use an elbow and if so was it effective? I feel I have decent power on the heavy bag with elbows but would hate to find out they are not very effective if I was defending myself or loved one.
An elbow is another of man’s hard bony surfaces that can impart lots of force to a target. Indeed they do cut easilly- I’ve seen it happen a few times (once to Clyde). They are good tools for groundfighting. They can cause just as much, if not more damage, than the fist and you don’t risk damaging the small bones of the hand. I read an interview with an old muay thai master, and he said elbows are all you need (although in muay thai a cut can end a match).
I don’t know if its part of krav, but I also train elbows in different ways to damage the limbs in defensive ways. These motions are not really fight enders, but they are definitely some of the most painful defenses available. Against repeated knee strikes, I drive the point of my elbow into the thigh to block. Against haymakers, I check the forearm with the palm of my rear hand and cover with the lead elbow, which ends up spiking into the bicep area. The crazy monkey type covers can be used to deflect punches, or to use the elbow point to impale punches. These covers can also be used to spike and ram opponents from a covered position. Another cover called a dracula can also be used to bridge the gap. Elbow covers can be used to attack offending limbs or cover up as you spike into the opponent. These tactics also work into the use of small knives in a reverse grip.Basically, just because something may not be an immediate fight ender (and elbows definitely may be) doesn’t mean its not worth training.
Here’s a short video of me doing some bag work. Note extensive use of elbows, mostly spiking as opposed to the more common smashing variety:
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=10246995One US Marine combat veteran who has actually been there and done that
( Vietnam, Gulf War, OIF I & II and now currently in Afghanistan )
I talked to him and asked about the elbow strikes and he said that elbows are not really that effective.
They are good for striking the throat, the stomach, soft striking areas.
Not for in hard striking areas with the possible exception of the temple on the head, that is about it.
He said to not believe the hype surrounding the use of the elbow strike or any form of hand to hand combat methods and to always try them out yourself with a friend, taking care not to injure him.
( You can hurt him to find out what really hurts but do not injurie him then he has to go to the hospital or worse. )
He said you will learn alots from fighting, he said you don’t need to go to the bar to start fights or anything like that.
You can fight with your friends right there in your backyard to find out what works and put it down on paper and pen what actually works and go with that.
He said that is something you are never going to hear from a martial arts instructor, and he said the martial arts instructor will flat out say it is not the best advice
but for yourselves it is the best way you can find what really works in case …..
You actually have to fight for keeps to protect your family and loved ones from harm.
Yeah their not very effective 🙄
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnpUkneMSWE
good videos unstpable1.
Elbows are devastating. They don’t substitute for the range you get with a punch, but become the best choice at close distances.
We recently had two officers who were in a wild fight with a crazed suspect who was (we later found out) juiced on acid. They hit him with a taser and the guy fell down into a brushy area. One of the taser probes broke loose in the brush. The fight continued. Pepper spray – didn’t work. Drive-stuns with the taser – no effect. Finally, the younger officer hit the bad guy with an elbow strike just above the bad guy’s right eye. Down went the bad guy, on went the hand cuffs and the wheels of the cruiser went round and round all the way to jail.
I saw the mug shot of the crazed bad guy the next day. It looked as if he’d had a golf ball implanted in his forehead!
Oh, btw – did I mention that the young officer trains in our Krav Maga LE classes? We were real happy about that!
Re:
quote \”JewishFitness1976\:Not for in hard striking areas with the possible exception of the temple on the head, that is about it.He said to not believe the hype surrounding the use of the elbow strike or any form of hand to hand combat methods and to always try them out yourself with a friend, taking care not to injure him.
No offense to your friend, but it doesn’t sound like he knows what he’s talking about when it comes to hand to hand. I would say if you have to take care not to injure your friend when trying things out on him, that’s a pretty good clue it *is* effective. And if it’s me and you training in the back yard, I get to go first. 😀
Thank him for his service to the country, but I think he’s coming from a different mentality when it comes to what is and isn’t effective in a street fight.
In a different class, the guy holding the pad took an accidental elbow to the face when the striker missed the pad. It broke a tooth in half.
Good endorsement for mouth guards too.
I had occassion to use an elbow in the real world, when attacked in a confined space (pushed into the stall in a bathroom). I was punched in the chest, but was abe to close space and move/fall forward into the attacker, we both fell up against the side of the stall. His arms were under mine (luckily, he was an idiot, not a trained fighter, as he could have gone either to my midsection or my groin with hands.) I hit him with one elbow to the front of the head above the nose (he moved) which didn’t do TOO much to him, but it did bounce his head off the metal stall pretty well, then another elbow which connected with his nose and upper lip. It made an awful mess, and the fight was over. The fight probably lasted 8-10 seconds. I found a security guard, told him what had happened, then got out of there. I did not stick around to see the aftermath for a number of reasons I would prefer not to go into here.
So for me, in this situation, elbows were quite effective.
I know that I have broke a tooth on a guy I train with – and that was with me pulling the elbow and him just a slight hair to close… Im sure I would have bloodied up my elbow with his teeth if it had been for real, but he would have been out.
so – I guess that means for me at least, the elbow is effective. I would use it if it fit the situation and I do train with elbows.
Hmmm! If elbows are not effective, why do Marine Corps Martial Arts teach them? My son is a former Marine and an Irag combat veteran. While he was home on leave, we compared notes – my Kav Maga training and marine Corps Martial Arts. They are definitely taught elbow strikes.
I e-mailed him the forum link and asked him his thoughts ….
Here is what he said …..
Alots of what you see in MMA will get you killed on the battlefield or the street plus elbow strikes are not always realistic.
In Vietnam, he saw someone try to elbow a NVA soldier during the Tet Offensive and that Marine broke his elbow and it did not faze the NVA soldier, he eventually killed the NVA with rocks from the rubble with his good hand while holding his elbow back.
During the occupation of Kuwait by Saddam’s military forces, he was fighting house to house and one of the Marines tried to elbow the Iraqi soldier and he yelled No !!!! as the Iraqi soldier ducked and the Marine did not see the knife at all. He died moments later all because of a forward elbow drive when there would have been better options to kill the enemy and where he would have been able to see the knife and take evasive action then disarm him of his knife and kill the enemy.
He said he does not put much faith in the elbow strikes, they are very basic strikes when used the right way to great effect, elbow stike then a judo throw then follow up with brutal kicking and stompings to vital areas of the body also he said that alots of guys today are walking around with pinched nerves and damaged elbows, some can’t even move their hand because of the destruction wrought by the elbow strike, worse some are dead all because of an elbow strike.
He said that when he participated in some of the major battles in Vietnam and he saw the aftermath of so many US Marines with broken fists from throwing straight punches, and he said that he saw almost no one with a broken hand due to the edge of the hand blow. ( karate chop ) Those few with broken hands from the edge of the hand was because there was no time to form an edge of hand blow.
He said your two hands are a much, much better controlling and striking weapon than an elbow strike.
He said that he fought drugged out hardcore NVA soldiers who felt no pain and he always carried a wooden club that he made himself to deal with hardcore NVA soldiers who were drugged out. He said that if he was a police officer, he would have used the baton and not the elbow strike.
He is a veteran and he actually has been there and done that. He is currently deployed to Afghanistan. He said he does not have much faith in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program, while it is a good conditioning program, it does not address aggressive vicious fighting at its core, yes aggressive fighting is emphaisized but not the meat and the bone of being in combat and surviving a hand to hand combat encounter.
He said that what really counts is vicious fighting and not hurting yourself while putting the enemy in a bad world of hurt and killing the enemy.
An elbow not working when applied by a guy with minimal training in a very high stress environment doesn’t prove they don’t work. There are lots of similar incidents where firearms proved ineffective at stopping an attacker, but it wouldn’t be right to say guns don’t work. I’m also not sure how you could elbow somebody hard enough to break your own elbow. Somebody must be training these guys to throw elbows incorrectly if there are \”alots of guys today are walking around with pinched nerves and damaged elbows, some can’t even move their hand because of the destruction wrought by the elbow strike, worse some are dead all because of an elbow strike.\” If they are dying, its not exactly because of elbow strikes- its because they are unarmed for some reason and facing odds where they really should have a weapon.
I think the guy also contradicts himself when saying sportfighting techniques don’t work in real life, then mentions elbows followed with a judo throw.
He was talking about being on the battlefield of Vietnam with alots of guys who had damaged elbows and today they are walking around with pinched nerves, hands and arms that can’t move.
He said that in a battlefield environment, ammo goes really fast then when that is gone go to bayonets then finally your rifle then when that rifle gets broken then there is hand to hand combat.
He said that in a judo competition you are not allowed to kick or stomp him once he gets thrown to the ground and he was able to do that in Vietnam.
Elbow strike to the stomach followed by the arm of the throw the finishing him off with stomping his vital organs and his head.
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