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Do these elbow injuries come from elbow strikes, or something else?
Does he claim it was common to run out of ammo, break your bayonet, break your rifle and then go to hand to hand? I can’t imagine this is the case. You’d be hard pressed to break a rifle on a person to the point its not even a functional club. You also have sticks, rocks, e tools, knives, helmets etc that can be used as weapons.
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quote \”unstpabl1\:Yeah their not very effective 🙄http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnpUkneMSWE
HAHAHAHA. Another funny post…
…this is why I stare at your picture at night…
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quote \”CLFMak\:Do these elbow injuries come from elbow strikes, or something else?Does he claim it was common to run out of ammo, break your bayonet, break your rifle and then go to hand to hand? I can’t imagine this is the case. You’d be hard pressed to break a rifle on a person to the point its not even a functional club. You also have sticks, rocks, e tools, knives, helmets etc that can be used as weapons.
He told me that that during Tet, there was no time for re-supply of ammo. You had to do what you had to with alittle or nothing else. Rocks from the rubble and wood from the buildings, pipes soon became commonplace to use in the early stages of Tet until re-supply routes could be established.
Marines did with whatever they had. It was a kill or be killed situation.
He said anyways, the point is that the hand to hand combat methods you see in any book or manual just gives you the basics. Doesn’t matter if it is Krav or MCMAP or karate or judo or whatever ….
You have to really work out what really works and what really does not work with your friends to be sure for yourselves.
It is alots better to know how the mechanics of hand to hand combat would really work in a real life crisis and have a more realistic program.
You know what he told me, he told his Marines to throw out the MCMAP program and just fight and find out what really works and put it on paper and pen and delevop a realistic program for his own unit. He is a Vietnam Veteran and has been through many wars and he is on active duty US Marine. He told me the MCMAP and the US Army’s MACP program is nothing but politically correct stuff and when the real deal goes down they will be using what they learned from stratch and not from MCMAP.
As for myself, I would not be surprised if someday, there was a major battle where it came down to savage hand to hand combat. The majority of hand to hand combat survivors will be those who have worked out what really works for keeps in wartime. The same goes for self defense, protecting your own family from harm. I enjoy Krav Maga, but when it comes down to it, I will have already figured out what really works and what doesn’t work in a real life self defense crisis and he encouraged me to find out the mechanics of hand to hand combat for myself and some of the things I found out really took me by surprise so work it out for yourselves and you will see. You can continue to enjoy Krav Maga but please keep in mind what this man, a Vietnam Veteran has told me and I hope this helps you guys. It is up to you to find out what really works for yourselves.
the TET was in 68′ if my memory serves me and assuming if the guy was around 20 then he must be almost 60 now if not older. Why in hell is he being deployed in Afghanistan at 60+ years old?
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quote \”KMSF\:the TET was in 68′ if my memory serves me and assuming if the guy was around 20 then he must be almost 60 now if not older. Why in hell is he being deployed in Afghanistan at 60+ years old?there is a great book about a guy named Billy Waugh, \”called Hunting The Jackel\”. Ex Special Forces Nam era, CIA operative for the rest of his life. he was fighting the Taliban and AQ in his 70’s with an SF Ateam. Checked with the SOCNET guys, He’s real and reviered.
JF1976
Spend some time on youtube watching Muat Thai matches, see hou devasting an elbow can be. I’ve seen 50-60 stiches after an elbow. Anything that will open you up like that is effective. you talk about testing things for yourself. what do you think guys are doing when they pad up and spar
I guess you could go out in your back yard and find someone to throw elbows at your head, then fists and hammers and palms. Record your results and post back here with your findings. Tell us thru expirience which was more effective and which sucks. But you can’t wear headgear cause that wouldn’t give a true reading of effectiveness. I could record it or even throw the techs at you full force. Then we could sell as Jackass III.
There is a reason elbows are illegal or hard to get sanctioned in mma. The thais prove it every day and they average around 300 fights a career. If those vids weren’t enough to convince you that your point was invalid and down right ignorant than you are beyond hope.
I feel in a way I’m being mean to you, which is not my normal way of treating anyone, even one I disagree with. I apologize in advance, but this is one of the silliest discussions I’ve seen. Go to a Thai gym and have someone clock you with an elbow. If you don’t feel it was effective report back, Its the same as training in you backyard, only with a guy who knows the technique. If after that you think I was just dissing you to be mean. I promise I’ll issue a public apology. Please send video 😉
Mike
He has been a Marine his whole life and he is a captain soon to be promoted to be a major. He started out at private then went to school to become a officer, stateside.
I would assume what he is doing in Afghanistan is that he is working in the operations room making sure things get done.
I remember him telling me that alots of the political corretness is going to kill this country if they don’t snuff it out right now and that he thought the Pentagon was not doing the right thing by the US Troops with a un-realistic hand to hand combat program. He said most hand to hand fights do not end up on the ground. Real fights usually happen standing up and if it goes to the ground, waste no time killing him, none of that hugging around and wrestling stuff. Just go in and kill the enemy.
He made sure his men got realistic training and he told them to forget that MCMAP stuff and find out for themselves what works, he taught some techniques and he said that he did not want to see anybody get killed because someone in the Pentagon thought MMA-style MCMAP was cool. He said to stick with what really works. He said that MCMAP is more of a good conditioning program that is it.
He told me I can enjoy Krav Maga but when the stuff goes down then go to what I learned for self defense.
I think it is best not to dis-respect a veteran especially when he has been through these things, himself.
He would always tell me , \” Go try it and find out if it works or not \”.
I think it is time to stop complaining and go try it yourself and see if it works or not.
Unstpabl1, I have already had people try to elbow me and I have tried to elbow people. It really does not work. Only if the elbow is comfortable enough to use towards the stomach when held from behind, simple elbow strikes would work but complex elbow strikes is really laughable.
Maybe in the best conditioned atheletes they could do complex elbow strikes
but in a real combat situation, I really don’t see anybody elbowing somebody and they would be foolish to try it.
He told me that elbows are one of the worst that you can use and he would never use an elbow, there are much better, more faster and effective techniques also there are better ways to knock somebody out than an elbow strike.
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quote \”JewishFitness1976\:He told me I can enjoy Krav Maga but when the stuff goes down then go to what I learned for self defense.I think it is best not to dis-respect a veteran especially when he has been through these things, himself.
He would always tell me , \” Go try it and find out if it works or not \”.
I think it is time to stop complaining and go try it yourself and see if it works or not.
What in your well trained opinion would be the difference between Krav Maga techniques and self defense. Where have they erred. What changes would your backyard self exploration cause you to make. I remember you joining thei board not so long ago looking for training, so are you self taught now?
No one is being disrespectfull to anyone. We don’t agree with your accessment of elbows. Why? Because most of us have used them or been hit with them. You bring up some third party and expect us to blindly accept the word and existence of this gentleman. Its simple its a harder bone than your fist and i know you know getting punched in the grill hurts…Right?
I don’t know buddy , but I think most of us train or have trained to one degree or another. I don’t think we’re complaining, but hey if you think so. I’ll take elbows outta my arsenal because you said it doesn’t work. How about knees? How long have you been training again? Have you developed your own style in that backyard Lab. Send the vid so we can learn what works and doesn’t 🙄
I’m truely sorry… I’m done 😈
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quote \”JewishFitness1976\:Unstpabl1, I have already had people try to elbow me and I have tried to elbow people. It really does not work. Only if the elbow is comfortable enough to use towards the stomach when held from behind, simple elbow strikes would work but complex elbow strikes is really laughable.Maybe in the best conditioned atheletes they could do complex elbow strikes
but in a real combat situation, I really don’t see anybody elbowing somebody and they would be foolish to try it.
He told me that elbows are one of the worst that you can use and he would never use an elbow, there are much better, more faster and effective techniques also there are better ways to knock somebody out than an elbow strike.
I’m just quoting this again to share your wisdom and expirience with the rest of the board one more time and I’m going to go train because you have lost all credibility with me. I’m disappointed in myself in a way cause I really try only to post when I can add something. Now I’m erestraining my self from telling you what I think. And its much nicer to go train and put you on ignore, something I’ve never done to anyone before.
Good luck with your training. I wish you well
Sincerly
MikeI suppose the reason some martial arts ban elbows is BECAUSE they are effective. It’s not that they \”just\” open up cuts, but they are able to cut a fighter in areas of the body where a fist might not cause as much damage (top of the head, forehead for example). If the elbow lands on a softer target (nose, mouth), even worse.
Jewish Fitness’s source said that he saw many people with broken hands because they tried to punch the enemy, but also states that punches are better than elbows? That would be contradictory.
Also, combat situations and SD situations are not necessarily the same thing. Usually, in combat, soldiers are more alert to possible attack and carry a lot of equipment, protections and weapons and so does the enemy soldier. If given the choice between a club or gun or knife or an elbow, of course the weapons would be stronger, but a civilian might not carry these types of weapon while being attacked. Also, an enemy soldier might wear a helmet, making it hard for the elbow to penetrate. Maybe some injuries were suffered while accidently hitting parts of a metal helmet? If a helmet is worn, maybe punches could penetrate better, because the fist is smaller.
If someone tries to elbow a person, but he draws a knife and stabs him (example Jewish Fitness gave), then it’s a tactical error, not really a sign that the elbow, had it landed, wouldn’t have been effective.
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GiantkillerHey whoa wait a mintune, I am just saying what the US Marine himself, told me and he said that edge of hands are better, the punches should be struck in the soft areas of the target. Elbow strikes should only be used if it make sense and would be more comfortable, like for example the elbow strike to the stomach from behind then the judo throw then finish him off.
As for myself, I am new here but I am picking up alittle here and there including alittle of the MCMAP stuff, not too much as well as Krav Maga and working out what works out or not. I am also studying ju justui, judo and ww 2 hand to hand combat and I am taking alittle from everything that makes sense to protect my family.
He said he is 56 years old by the way and one of his concerns is that he said that the MMA stuff is going to really kill alots of our US troops before the Pentagon wakes up and realizes that stuff does not work.
Do you see foriegn armies and our enemies training in MMA ?
He said no way, you won’t see ’em training in MMA and neither should we either.
He said he feels like he is talking to 20 years old kids who think they know everything when they don’t know what the hell they are talking about and that he is done here. He said it is a total waste of time because you guys are too sold on this MMA stuff. Your minds are already made up to learn MMA so be it.
As for myself I don’t know what to say …. It just would have been nice if you guys did really go outside and try to find out what works or not and put down what works on paper and pen then keep it to yourselves. I think he gave you guys some pretty good advice.
I have really tried to stay out of controversy here in the forums so in an effort to do so I will preface my comments with the following history.
Long before I ever stepped into a KM center my elbows were hard to hold a pad against. I throw my right 45í almost as hard as my cross. So that would be a modified #1
JF I canít speak to anyone elseís experience other then mine having shared that I have tossed elbows both inside and out of the ring. In a self defense situation I would ABSOLUTLY use it. It might be the years of MT/KB I have or the Kenpo background but I drop my weight and use my entire upper torso to follow through, when in tight itís the first thing that comes to mind. I also tend to grab the back of someoneís head with the free hand and pull them into it. I have knocked guys cold with it.
In fact anyoneís thatís seen me demo including John/Darren has commented about it.
As far as doing it while sparring the Thaiís might disagree. I do them out of a clinch out of habit. Soon as a feel the bump left uppercut right elbow left body hook.
The beauty of Krav is that once the initial threat is neutralized you have the ability to use a combative you choose. If elbows donít seem to work for you no big deal just find what your comfortable with what comes naturally and use that.
For me its devastating elbows and a back leg roundhouse that would make Crocop smile.
Good luck with your training, I always enjoy your comments.
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quote \”JewishFitness1976\:Do you see foriegn armies and our enemies training in MMA ?He said no way, you won’t see ’em training in MMA and neither should we either.
He said he feels like he is talking to 20 years old kids who think they know everything when they don’t know what the hell they are talking about and that he is done here. He said it is a total waste of time because you guys are too sold on this MMA stuff. Your minds are already made up to learn MMA so be it.
As for myself I don’t know what to say …. It just would have been nice if you guys did really go outside and try to find out what works or not and put down what works on paper and pen then keep it to yourselves. I think he gave you guys some pretty good advice.
JF1976
Listen, go back and read thru you posts and tell me how you went from discussing the ineffectiveness of elbows in combat to the ineffectiveness of MMA on the modern battlefield. Elbows though used in MMA and MCMAP are a technique though used by both systems at various times have been used as a weapon forever.
Its like your trying to discuss 3 things at once. Elbows, The effects of MMA on combatives, and whether MCMAP or krav is effective.
The biggest mistake your making is accusing the posters on this board of not pressure testing their techniques or following by blind faith. this isn’t really a poser board. Which you’d know if you ever took one of their fight classes.
MCMAP, krav, FAS WWII combatives are a different topic.
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