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If someone is an experienced \”knife fighter,\” you really dont’ stand a chance. Run.
Our knife defenses work best against an exaggerated or enraged movement, not skilled slice-and-dice. An experienced knife user isn’t going to give a big swing. He’s going to come in and slash/stab the vital areas with short bursting movements.
Ah, the mysterious \”knife fighter\”. Who are these guys? What makes one \”experienced\” at \”knife fighting\”? How many of these guys exist? Are they all good? I mean, there are experienced boxers, right? Surely our stand-up can’t contend with them. Oh, and the experienced grappler–forget about it.
Well, some people may take lessons in knife fighting. Some thugs may have used a knife before and have some good idea on how to use it to the best of their advantage. \”Experienced grapplers\” exist, too. As a self-defense student I’d want to at least give some thought to the possibility of encountering someone like that even if it’s not the most likely scenario. Otherwise we could just tell people to stay the hell out of trouble and then send them on their merry way.
I think I saw this video on TV on some show called \”max extreme video\”, or something like that.
This guy was a San Diego Chargers fan at a game in Oakland where he chose to wear his teams colors. If anyone knows about the Oakland fans, this is a major no-no in their house.
If I remember correctly, the guy was involved in a conflict with the people behind him, which is in part why he was turned away from the guy who stabbed him.
Anyway, the guy does survive.
The answer to most of those questions seems irrelevant to me for self-defense purposes. I don’t care how many there are exactly, there are some, and who knows, I might run into one of them. Low probability, but yet it’s possible. So, why not at least consider it while training? Sure, statistically speaking, most victims may not be attacked by a 230+ pound boxing champion, then again it happened to Desiree Washington….
It still amazes me that you have been training in KM for nearly a decade, and you just don’t get it.
Let’s say you run across an experienced knife fighter. Then what? Do they have a wrist band on that lets you know that? How about the boxer? Does he show you his club membership before he hits you? It doesn’t make any difference if they are \”experienced\” or not–you won’t know it. If they’re punching, you defend punches. If they are shooting, you defend the shot. If they are stabbing (and you realize it), you defend the stab.
in general, isn’t the whole point that you WON’T know whether you’re being hit or stabbed until after the fact? you defend/attack the attack regardless. i would agree with ryan: there is no way for you to know your attacker’s experience/training. but vice versa: there’s no way for them to know your’s.
in this particular video, there is a lot of other stuff going on. it’s just a crappy situation.
Two Comments about this video:
1. That stabbing is right out of a prison. I’m sure the guy has spent time in prison and probably is a gang or biker member. It is concealed (like a shank would be) and is only seen because of the video. He knows exactly what he is doing and where he is sticking in the knife. This guy used the chaos and diversion to let this Chargers fan know he is not welcome in Oakland.
2. Raider Fans. I wish I could say this is not the norm at a Raiders game but if you have been in the stadium you would know it is. I’m not saying all Raiders fans are like this and if you are a Raiders fan then you have nothing to worry about BUT Raiders games draw a very dangerous group of people. If you dare wear anything that is another team’s color, then your chances of being verbally and physically abused are iminent. I have worn all black without a Raiders logo and have been verbally threatened. I am constantly on guard while there. I have seen fans being accosted in the bathrooms, at the concession stands, even just standing in the halls. I saw Jets fans at a urinal being pressed up against the walls (dick out) being punched. Nobody did a thing to stop it since these guys were scary. We got security and saw them go in and break that up. I saw a 10 year old 49ers fan get a beer poured over his head while standing with his mother at a concession’s stand and most just laughed. He was lucky. I have also seen people walking through the stadium just get thrown into the walls (like in a high school).
If you need to test your skills wear a Broncos jersey to Oakland…I wish you much luck!
Ryan,
Ah, there it is again, the good old \”you don’t agree with me, so you must be stupid\” argument.
Well, could it be that YOU just \”don’t get it\”?
You seem to negate and ridicule any possibility that your potential attacker could be a skilled fighter, whether it be grappler, knife fighter, boxer or street thug.
When evaluating a potential threat, I don’t want to eliminate possibilities, I want to increase them. I want to think about all the things that could possibly go wrong and then try and prepare for them.
Of course I won’t know what kind of skills my assailant may possess. That’s why I would treat any attacker as though he knows everything. I want to mentally prepare myself for the worst, so if it happens I’m ready, if not, well good for me.
Your whole approach to self-defense seems to be \”just don’t get into trouble and if you do it’s your own damn fault, but don’t worry it’ll be easy, ’cause the guy won’t have a clue as to what he is doing and your surprise counter will knock him out immediatly, even if he’s twice your size.\”
That kind of thinking could be dangerous, because it could lead to a false sense of security.
\”You seem to negate and ridicule any possibility that your potential attacker could be a skilled fighter, whether it be grappler, knife fighter, boxer or street thug.\”
Are you dense or what? READ my post. You won’t know the skill level of your opponent, therefore it doesn’t matter. Treat them like they are a world champ who spent time in prison, has a knife and four friends with them–what changes?
Please tell me, oh ye of vast knowledge and real world experience, how you train differently for \”a skilled fighter, whether it be grappler, knife fighter, boxer or street thug\”? I’m really curious to know this, because you should probably have videos or something.
Your last paragraph is hilarious. You obviously either don’t read my posts, or your comprehension skills just aren’t up to par (which is okay–we all learn differently.) You’ve certainly never trained with me, though many people on this forum have. Regardless, your right, I’m wrong, whatever. If the best instructors in the world couldn’t get to you over the past decade, I don’t know why I thought I could do it over the internet.
Giantkiller…
You said this about Ryan’s approach \”Ah, there it is again, the good old \”you don’t agree with me, so you must be stupid\” argument. \”
That’s not what he’s trying to say. What I think he’s trying to say is that \”your assumptions don’t match what Krav teaches, and at points become very, very dangerous were anyone to operate under those assumptions.\” For people who have chosen as a career to teach self-defense, some of the \”creativity\” you have with interpreting principles upon which Krav is based is really undermining the work that instructors do.
I agree with Ryan. You will have no time to discern what sort of training the person has had until it’s too late…so trying to do so is unrealistic and could easily lose you the fight.
You also spoke of increasing possibilities. But that kind of thought only works in theoretical reflections. In a real attack, you won’t have any time to process \”Wow, his stance looks like ______ and he’s moving like _______ and he just tried to attack me with _________ technique so he must have ___________ training so I’m going to access ___________ training of my own to counter it\”.
That kind of mindset negates the majority of what Krav is about. And rather than consider that possibility, you defend your original, dangerous assumptions!
I don’t know, maybe I’m being misunderstood here, but I actually believe Ryan’s approach is the one that’s \”dangerous\”. He seems to assume (based on his posts, for example the one he made in response to dalamar’s) that it’s practically impossible to run into a skilled fighter in the street. If that’s the assumption, then it’s easy to let your guard down and therein lies the danger.
To me, the difference is in the mindset. I wouldn’t want to underestimate my opponent. In fact, I’d rather overestimate him than underestimate him. If I expect him to be incapacitated by my very first counterattack (because I’m assuming he’s probably not very skilled anyway and won’t be able to take my surprise punch and has no idea how to properly use his weapon), then I likely will not know how to adjust if that expectation doesn’t come true. What if a struggle ensues? What if I can’t make my perfect gun takeaway and now we both got two hands on it and we are pulling and yanking? What if there are multiple stabs? Should I stay in close, move back? If I expect it to be easy, I will not bother to train for the worst and that could end up being a costly mistake.
Of course the first defense and counter are the same, no matter what his skill level may be. But then what? If he’s still standing after that first punch and continues to attack, I may be stumped, because in my happy world he was supposed to drop on the spot. A good fighter may take my punch and might continue to attack. And if he’s good, he’ll be that much harder to fight.
So, how do I prepare? Well, in addition to refining my general fighting and Krav Maga skills, taking it seriously (as opposed to thinking something like \”This is so easy, I’ve done it three times, now I know what to do)\”, I would also spend a good amount of time on practicing how to react if things go wrong, so I’ll be ready to adjust in that case. Of course, I’ll do that BEFORE the fight, precisely because there is no time to try to think about these things when the fight is on. If I practice these things in the gym, I’ll have a better chance of succeeding in doing them in the street. If all I ever do is practice to perform the perfect technique (because I may believe that’s all that’s going to be necessary), I will not know what to do if it fails. I’ll have to assume the worst, so I can get ready for the worst. Of course, I may not always succeed, but it will give me better odds than just carrying around a false sense of security.
By the way, although in most cases you may not know your opponent’s skill level, it’s possible that on some occasions you do, for example if the attacker turns out to be a person you know (see the other thread about the guy who is afraid of his BB friend). In those cases, you might be able to utilize your knowledge about his skills and try to go against his strength (take down a stand up fighter, use kicks against a boxer rather than punches etc). Of course that would only be useful if you have at least marginal fighting experience yourself.
Ryan, what purpose did your first post serve, if not to ridicule dalamar’s remarks about encountering experienced knife fighters in the street? And then you mention grapplers and boxers as if to say that it would be equally preposterous to assume that you might run into one of them. Sorry, but the whole thing sounded like a cynical remark rather than a serious question. If that’s not how it was meant, well that’s how it came across. Maybe my comprehension skills aren’t the problem but rather your inability to properly express your thoughts in writing?
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