- This topic has 49 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 18 years, 1 month ago by
.
-
Posts
-
GK, I’ve never meet someone as obstinate
as youself. Your argument isn’t even specious at best.
I’m so glad you don’t teach people self-protection.Hey guys,
I’m not sure this debate is going to advance much farther, especially now that you are all using energy to insult one another.From my view it seems to me as if there is a bit of communication error here.
I think what GK is saying is that there are certain \”tells\” that an \”experienced <insert whatever> fighter\” will demonstrate. So what he is saying, IF we can recognize those tells through training, PERHAPS we can be even more prepared for the fight.
There is nothing wrong with exploring this type of thinking; its the conclusion you come to at the end that is important. I think that conclusion is what every one is trying to help him get to:
If you use the Krav techniques correctly then it shouldn’t matter what level of attacker you are facing. This is the inherent beauty of Krav in that you don’t have to be a special forces soldier experienced in, knife fighting for example, to perform the techniques. You should be able to apply Krav techniques as they are today to any situation and the experience level of your opponent should not be a factor nor should you be thinking about it in a situation.
What others are trying to tell him, maybe in not so eloquent terms, is that he can address those possibilites within the existing framework of Krav without making things overly complex.
If we think about the open-ended nature of the KM logo, you will be able to ask yourself how did the system evolve? It was through a lot of questioning, probably a lot like GK’s, that led to effectiveness of the system. I think what is important about GK’s posts is that he is exploring the possibilities of a very real situation and wants to learn from others. Isn’t that the point of this forum?
Bar-El, please explain to me how your training would differ if you knew everyone you faced was bigger, stronger, faster, armed, with friends, and more experienced? Mine wouldn’t change a bit. I always assume these things. I’m 5’7\”, 135 pounds–it wouldn’t make sense for me to not assume them. So, I’ll ask you, how would your training change?
Back to the original point of contention, I’ll also ask you, Bar-El, who are these knife fighters, how many are there, how many of those are criminals, are they all good, and how do you know beforehand what their background is?
Okay, I guess we have been talking around each other in some way. Looks like now we actually ARE in agreement. Ryan, you are saying now that you always assume these things to be possible and that’s all I was trying to suggest one should do. I’ve never claimed that the technique changes if you are going against an experienced opponent, just that it would be harder to fight against one and so you shouldn’t take things lightly and dismiss certain possibilities outright.
Some of your posts (not just this one, but several others, even on the old forum) give the impression that you are not willing to even discuss certain situations – assuming that they will never happen anyway. Even if, statistically, certain attacks are less likely to occur than others, I personally like to take a different approach – I like to ask questions and explore all possibilities. I find it helps me with my overall comprehension of the system if I try to apply the things learned to different circumstances – whether they are likely to occur or not.
\”If someone is an experienced \”knife fighter,\” you really dont’ stand a chance. Run.
Our knife defenses work best against an exaggerated or enraged movement, not skilled slice-and-dice. An experienced knife user isn’t going to give a big swing. He’s going to come in and slash/stab the vital areas with short bursting movements.\”
This is the post I responded to that caused you to get in such a tizzy. Andre, Jeff, and charmingky seemed to have no problem with my prose, so I’m still questioning your comprehension.
You see, dalamar is the one who states, rather matter of factly, \”If someone is an experienced \”knife fighter,\” you really dont’ stand a chance.\” Now, where we train, \”no chance\” doesn’t exist. If you guys train that way, I can’t do anything about it–I’m just glad you don’t teach. Futhermore, I wanted to know where his knowledge of \”experienced knife user(s)\” came from, and what proof he had that \”Our knife defenses work best against an exaggerated or enraged movement, not skilled slice-and-dice.\” You see, I was asking him to further explain his post–you jumped in, offering, well, not much as it related to my questions.
Of course Andre has no problem with your prose – he works for you. Him not liking your prose would be the same as you criticizing one of John’s posts – it’s not likely to happen.
So, if you just wanted to ask dalamar a specific question about certain assertions he had made, then why not do so straight? What’s with the \”Ah\” and the allusion to boxers and grapplers? Sorry, but your post just came across as being cynical rather than as constructive criticism.
Anyway, you and your friends keep claiming how \”glad they are that I’m not a teacher\”. Based on what? Because I said to take self-defense seriously and not to underestimate your opponent? That would be a bad thing? How?
Actually, many of your posts irritate me precisely because you are a teacher. It’s not just this one, but even on the old forum, sometimes people would discuss a scenario and you might respond with something like \”It’s not likely to happen anyway, so why discuss it?\” I remember some time ago there was a discussion about the benefits of sparring and you chimed in remarking basically that sparring isn’t like a real fight anyway, so why do it? Oh, and the old Mike Tyson vs Desiree Washington remark! 🙄
And what about that recent thread when we discussed the Alex Gong situation and you didn’t answer MY question, which was: Would it have been possible to make a gun defense from the position he was in and if yes, how would one have tried to defend? Your whole answer to that problem was: \”A KM student will never be in that situation, so there is no need to discuss it.\” How could you possibly make such an assertion? How can you be sure that in 100% of the cases a KM student would not be in that situation? Is that what you would tell a student if he asked?
Somehow, I would expect a KM teacher to be more open to discussing different scenarios and training methods. At least I would tell my students to be more open-minded and encourage them to use their brains in conjunction with their newfound Krav Maga skills to analyze different situations. I bet they would benefit.
I will refrain from my original posts. But I will say this, I don’t work for Ryan, sorry, and even if I did, it would not negate the information as it was presented to you.
I don’t know why I bother, but since you misquoted me all over the place:
What you said I said:
\”A KM student will never be in that situation, so there is no need to discuss it.\”
What I actually said:
\”Can you see Darren chasing down a car that just sideswiped his? Can you see Darren getting into multiple altercations at nightclubs? People that train and truly understand RBSP don’t put themselves in such situations.\”
What you said I said:
\”sparring isn’t like a real fight anyway, so why do it?\”
What I actually said:
I went back to October, and I couldn’t find anything that even YOU could have misconstrued this poorly. At my school, we have boxing, MMA, and Krav Maga. We have a boxing ring. We have a sparring class. We start sparring in our level 2 classes. This statement is ridiculous on so many levels.
Regarding the Tyson/Washington thing, you’ll simply never get it, so I won’t bother trying to explain it to you again.
At my school we do scenario replications in class: ATM, movie theater, football game, restaurant parking lot, etc. We train indoors, we train outdoors (we’ve had the police called before because of our parking lot scenarios.) We train domestic violence situations, we train domestic violence situations with bystanders. We train third party situations. We train against multiples, we train against weapons, we train against multiples with weapons.
Oh, and Andre doesn’t work for me, and I don’t work for John, so you even got those wrong.
Ryan, believe me, I understand what you are saying and I am not trying to contradict anything you are saying. My training wouldn’t change because, as I stated in my post, I should be able to operate within the krav framework. I shouldn’t be wondering what my attackers skills are.
My reason for posting what I said was not to agree with what GK was saying nor to contradict your questions about how my training would be affected. It was to only clarify where I thought GK might be coming from when he poses scenarios. I think thats how we improve. I am trying to give validity to his question asking, not the conclusion he was coming to.
Hey man, there’s nothing wrong with asking questions–we strongly encourage it where I train. However, I think many times this can cause \”paralysis by overanalysis\”, if it isn’t tempered with reason, and often people are missing the forest for the trees. She says \”what if they’re trained?\” I say, \”what if they are?\” I want to know what changes. Questions are asked, but then when she doesn’t like the answers…
I think a big problem is, people want clear-cut answers. By and large, these people have not faced real violence (not that there’s anything wrong with that. I wish more people fell into that category.) There are simply too many variables to consider–the situation will dictate the response. This is why one should understand concepts and principles, and not get hung up on techniques. Also, many times people will state something as fact (like dalamar did), with no supporting evidence, then when that’s challenged, some people take offense (I’m not sure why.)
This was taken from one of Ville’s posts on another forum. He a first class Krav Instructor out of Finland, and occasionally posts here.
[\”Hi all.
This post contains nothing special to the oldtimers of the forum. Still the following news is quite interesting and IMO it proves to a degree one point.
Often it is argued on these forums how difficult it will be to face a trained oppponent on \”hte street\”, a BJJ expert or skilled boxer for example.
It surely is for numerous reasons: They are used to contact, aggressive, they are in good shape and know how to hit hard or grapple etc.
However how much do we need to worry about them doing what they have trained to do so much?The following is what I read from a Finnish newspaper today.
Boxer commits a murder.
A national boxing champ who had won a medal in boxing commited a murder. (It doesn’t say how good he is in boxing but to win a medal even in a small country like Finland it is safe to say that you have to devote your life to training your combative art.)
What had happened was that the victim (a male) had invited the boxer into his apartment and had started making sexual advances towards the boxer (also a male.) This had angried the boxer and then the actual murder happened.The boxer described the events that happened when he committed the crime:
‘First we grappled, then I choked him from behind. After this I grabbed an electric cord and strangled him a bit more. Then I got the kitchen knife from the table and stabbed it into him. After that I rose up from the floor and kicked him a few times.’Hmm…no uppercuts, no jabs, no fancy combinations.
And I bet he had never used his skipping rope on trainining strangulations.
Emotions. They have a powerful effect on us and when we face an adversary his emotions in general affect his performance and his choice of tools as well.\”]Will this be true in all cases…nope, but it proves the mythos of the experienced fighter isn’t all its cracked up to be.
What if you did know the attacker had a knife? I realize the point that you may not, and probably will not know of the weapon, but what if you did? I know i would be a hell of a lot more scared. I remember practicing in class with the fake plastic knives, and at the end of class the instructor pulled out a real one and asked if we wanted to try with it. He wasn’t being serious but in my head i was like, \”Hell NO!\” I am not that high level in Krav so i would like to know if the counterattack is different when you are aware of the knife. If it’s the same, how do we train to overcome the fear. I think right now i would be too afraid of bursting in with a counterattack if i knew a knife was invloved.
Sorry I thought Andre worked for you, but there was an Andre listed as a teacher on your website, using the same quote as this Andre does, so I guess I figured it may be the same guy….
Anyway, maybe we are just talking around one another. I don’t have time to look through hundreds of posts, but the sparring discussion was well before October.
The Alex Gong thing, it wasn’t just about Darren personally, but at some point about whether or not a regular RBSD student would or would not put himself in that same situation.
Yes, I realize a boxer is not going to dance around a victim and throw jabs. Still he is strong, much better-conditioned than the average person, able to take punches and counterpunches and if he does decide to throw a punch it will be a pretty strong one. So he’ll be harder to fight than an inexperienced guy.
My only fear was, that if you were to assume that your potential attacker will not be a very skilled fighter and therefore relatively easy to defeat, that you would end up developing the wrong mindset – you’ll think it’ll be easy, so you won’t bother to train very hard and if he’s stronger than expected you are likely to lose the fight, because you weren’t ready for that type of resistance.
What you say you are teaching at your place sounds great. I personally like to go through as many different scenarios as possible. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. All it does is help you to learn to apply your skills to different situations, which can be helpful in the long run. Something unusual happens, you’ll know how to react, because you’ve done it before in training. Your reaction will be faster. If you have never practiced it, you may be stumped by what’s happening, there may be an opening right in front of you, but you don’t even see it, because you are so bent on finishing the technique the \”regular\” way, which may not be possible anymore. That could be costly.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
