Knife or gun

[satilan]

Re: Knife or gun

I dunno, seems to me like a silly question.
It’s in the flavour of: “would you rather get kicked or punched in the balls?”

Obviously a gun is more complicated like people said here… but if you watch enough TV or read enough newspaper, you’d know that stupid people use handguns pretty easily… point and click, no? Of course there’s other stuff you need to know to use it (loading, cocking, safety off, recoil, proper grip… etc…), but trust me… just the kick from a bullet hitting you would send you flying back… Plus, if a bullet hits you, it is guaranteed to penetrate your body deeply! Just think of the trauma!

My Krav Maga instructor once told us that the average amount of stab wounds needed to kill a person is 12… Average… this means that a good stab to the center of the belly or throat can take you out, but also that you’d need over 20-30 to kill someone if you keep contacting the person’s hands… but in the hands of a person that practices the use of the knife in combat… and by this I just mean know 2-3 stabbing/slashing techniques and train on a bag of potatoes… a knife can be a deadly weapon… but more importantly, it is extremely vicious…

So which one is scarier?
Does it REALLY matter??

:Surprised:

[unstpabl1]

Re: Knife or gun

quote kpalena:

Thanks fellow Kravistas….I had a training partner tell me that he did not need to learn cavaliers because “I will just kick the knife out of the guys hand”….I needed some ammo beyond me making him break dance on the floor. I tried and tried to get him to pracitce the technique correctly, but his ego kept getting in the way….sigh….

He is “going to wait” until we get to the gun defences…

Find a new partner. Somedays you work with good people, others you get stuck with the know it all moron, who’s got it all figured out. You don’t train for him/her. You train for you. Get the most outta the session and put him in the ignore file. Its not you job or responsibility to get him to practice it correctly. Shut your mouth and get your reps in. Your not going to change his mind. Why waste your energy. Let him flounder in his own little world of shit for brains. With his attitude, you won’t see him in a month or so anyway.

as to kicking the knife out of the hand, the FMA guys will thank him for the leg and give it back to him in sections

Leverages are great in the hands of a guy who can apply them. Yes delivering a little tenderizing first helps, but when you see them work against a resistant opponent for the 1st time, its a wow moment.

The gun vs knife question is a popular topic on line. If you get a chance google Dog Brothers Martial Arts. They have previews of 2 tapes done by them and one of the most progressive gun trainers today. The vids are called “Die Less Often” 1 & 2. Highly recommend both. They will open eyes. Watch how much fun the armed guy has trying to access his weapon while being attacked

There is a video of a guy in Mexico floating around youtube, taking on a bunch of armed cops. They didn’t fare too well against the knife.

The problem with the knife is usually you don’t see or feel it till after. Which I believe is why krav bases the defenses unarmed and armed the same way

As far as CJ’s Dad getting in so much trouble. It wasn’t because of work enviorment, but reputation. Sean is feared. Everywhere he goes people have heard of his Mad Warrior skills and his signiture Spinning Flying Axe Kick. The evildoers in the world have been trying to take out the myth since the dawn of time, but “The Man” has foiled them one and all.bow1 LOL

Aftershock LOL. You guys had too much fun:combat::woohoo:

[cjs-dad]

Re: Knife or gun

quote unstpabl1:

Aftershock LOL. You guys had too much fun

I knew you would remember that places reputation for a good time.. I was head of security for almost 2 years until I left for get this – Century Club.. cause yeah I thought that was a better gig.

As far as kicking the knife LOL thats funny. Tell him I said good luck with that.

[jeremy-stafford]

Re: Knife or gun

quote Satilan:

but trust me… just the kick from a bullet hitting you would send you flying back… Plus, if a bullet hits you, it is guaranteed to penetrate your body deeply! Just think of the trauma!

This is actually factually false. Handguns are actually very poor “stoppers” and handgun wounds are most often not fatal. I speak not only from experience, but physics alone debunk this nonsense. If a handgun bullet contained enough energy to “send you flying back”, then it would have to have imparted that same amount of energy into the person shooting the bullet, sending him flying back as well. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Don’t take it from me, just ask Mr. Newton. This why if something needs shooting, you should use a rifle.

As far as “Guaranteed” penetration……Well, based on the multiple shootings that I reviewed as a Police Academy Firearms Instructor and the multiple shootings that I review every year as a member of my Divisions training cadre, I call bullshit. Handgun bullets are quite often deflected by both the density and curvature of the skeletal system. If you want penetration, shoot them with a rifle. If you want trauma, throw a frag. If you want a guarantee, here’s two. Someday (hopefully not for a long, long time) you will die, and someday, you will pay taxes.

I don’t mean to come off as harsh, but I get frustrated seeing these ballistic myths being passed off as facts on the internet. I hope this was helpful. Stay safe and good luck in your training.

[jburtonpdx]

Re: Knife or gun

quote Jeremy Stafford:

This is actually factually false. Handguns are actually very poor “stoppers” and handgun wounds are most often not fatal. I speak not only from experience, but physics alone debunk this nonsense. If a handgun bullet contained enough energy to “send you flying back”, then it would have to have imparted that same amount of energy into the person shooting the bullet, sending him flying back as well. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Don’t take it from me, just ask Mr. Newton. This why if something needs shooting, you should use a rifle.

As far as “Guaranteed” penetration……Well, based on the multiple shootings that I reviewed as a Police Academy Firearms Instructor and the multiple shootings that I review every year as a member of my Divisions training cadre, I call bullshit. Handgun bullets are quite often deflected by both the density and curvature of the skeletal system. If you want penetration, shoot them with a rifle. If you want trauma, throw a frag. If you want a guarantee, here’s two. Someday (hopefully not for a long, long time) you will die, and someday, you will pay taxes.

I think I want to use this entire post as my sig line now……

[satilan]

Re: Knife or gun

quote Jeremy Stafford:

This is actually factually false. Handguns are actually very poor “stoppers” and handgun wounds are most often not fatal. I speak not only from experience, but physics alone debunk this nonsense. If a handgun bullet contained enough energy to “send you flying back”, then it would have to have imparted that same amount of energy into the person shooting the bullet, sending him flying back as well. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Don’t take it from me, just ask Mr. Newton. This why if something needs shooting, you should use a rifle.

As far as “Guaranteed” penetration……Well, based on the multiple shootings that I reviewed as a Police Academy Firearms Instructor and the multiple shootings that I review every year as a member of my Divisions training cadre, I call bullshit. Handgun bullets are quite often deflected by both the density and curvature of the skeletal system. If you want penetration, shoot them with a rifle. If you want trauma, throw a frag. If you want a guarantee, here’s two. Someday (hopefully not for a long, long time) you will die, and someday, you will pay taxes.

I don’t mean to come off as harsh, but I get frustrated seeing these ballistic myths being passed off as facts on the internet. I hope this was helpful. Stay safe and good luck in your training.

I must agree with what you’ve said as you have far more experience…

However, I did not mean that each bullet will go through your body and come out the other side crushing every organ/bone on the way.

What I meant was that there is a lot more penetration from a bullet than from a knife…

And to your physics part about an equal reaction to every action… the gun has way more mass than the bullet and therefore kicks back with lower acceleration although the kinetic energy is the same both on the bullet and on the gun.

In addition, gas dispersing mechanisms and pathways in the firearm help to “spread” this kickback force over a longer (so to speak) period of time… so essentialy the work is the same but the force felt at any moment by the gun is much lower than the one felt by the bullet which has the entirety of this work acting upon it in a fraction of a second.

If it weren’t so, and the gun would really kick back with the same kinetic punch when you fire them, the gun could kill you or just hurt you really bad.

I completely agree that when in need to kill something, use a rilfle. However, this is mostly the case when one is interested in hitting a target at longer range. The muzzle energy of a rifle IS higher, but you are shooting at a target farther down range… every round slows down eventually. Yes, there is no doubt that a rifle is 10 time more dangerous than a handgun.

In short, all I was saying is that both a knife and a gun are equally dangerous.

[jeremy-stafford]

Re: Knife or gun

quote Satilan:

And to your physics part about an equal reaction to every action… the gun has way more mass than the bullet and therefore kicks back with lower acceleration although the kinetic energy is the same both on the bullet and on the gun.

In addition, gas dispersing mechanisms and pathways in the firearm help to “spread” this kickback force over a longer (so to speak) period of time… so essentialy the work is the same but the force felt at any moment by the gun is much lower than the one felt by the bullet which has the entirety of this work acting upon it in a fraction of a second.

If it weren’t so, and the gun would really kick back with the same kinetic punch when you fire them, the gun could kill you or just hurt you really bad.

I don’t mean to keep arguing, but this again is not completely true. What about revolvers? There is no “gas dispersing and pathways in the firearm” there. Just the revolver itself. You are correct about the mass of the gun helping to mitigate the recoil, but again, short of something along the lines of a .454 Casull, there is not a handgun bullet in the world that will make badguy fly across the room when hit (even then, it would just be like he was pushed, not actually flying). People that are hit with common service rounds often don’t even know they are hit initially (this is why we train failure drill and non standard response in Law Enforcement). Flying across the room is pure Hollywood. The closest thing I’ve seen to flying was a Fedayeen that I hit with a shotgun slug at 30 yards, and that just spun him.

[satilan]

Re: Knife or gun

quote Jeremy Stafford:

I don’t mean to keep arguing, but this again is not completely true. What about revolvers? There is no “gas dispersing and pathways in the firearm” there. Just the revolver itself. You are correct about the mass of the gun helping to mitigate the recoil, but again, short of something along the lines of a .454 Casull, there is not a handgun bullet in the world that will make badguy fly across the room when hit (even then, it would just be like he was pushed, not actually flying). People that are hit with common service rounds often don’t even know they are hit initially (this is why we train failure drill and non standard response in Law Enforcement). Flying across the room is pure Hollywood. The closest thing I’ve seen to flying was a Fedayeen that I hit with a shotgun slug at 30 yards, and that just spun him.

Yeah, I wouldn’t want to continue arguing either and reading my original post I realize I wrote “send you flying back” when what I meant was that feeling of getting pushed back produced by a bullet… I guess it got lost in translation, and for that I apologize.

The reason why guns (rifles or handguns) are so devastating is that they concentrate a relatively large amount of energy on a small point in the target’s body… plus – they do so at a comfortable distance – keeping the firer safe from the target.

Now, when you said:

quote :

Bullets are quite often deflected by both the density and curvature of the skeletal system.

I think this illustrates my point. I don’t want my skeletal system to deflect bullets!

🙂

[bradm]

Re: Knife or gun

quote KMMAN:

Man, I see what you are all saying but there is nothing scarier than a gun being pointed at you. Defense may be easier but, damn, that barrell is scary.

Your’re right about the barrel being scary. Many years ago during my Air Force career, I was sent to work on an aircraft on the alert pad, armed with weapons. I had to enter the area and the aircraft serveral times in the afternoon doing my repairs. The Security policeman got to recogonize me and would flag me in without checking ID badge. Well it got dark and I went to the aircraft for one final system check before clearing the write-up. I climed up the ladder to the cocpit to get the aircraft forms. As I leaned into the cocpit, I felt a tap on my heel. (They had changed guards and the new guard didn’t know me.) The tap on my heel was the business end of his M-16. The bore on that rifle looked like a 155 howitzer. Scared the shit out of me. And being spread eagled on the cold ground at Yokota AFB, Japan in winter was no picnic either waiting my my ID to be varified.

[giant-killer]

Re: Knife or gun

quote Jeremy Stafford:

Handgun bullets are quite often deflected by both the density and curvature of the skeletal system.

Does this apply to all parts of the skeletal system, or just the most dense parts? If a bullet fired at close range (maybe 5-10 feet away) hit one of my ribs, could it happen that it would not penetrate? Would it shatter my rib, but not enter the body further (be somehow deflected away from my body? Or would it be deflected into my body? What about a bullet being fired through my chest and hitting my spine? Would this most likely paralyze or kill me, or is there a chance that the bullet will lose enough velocity while going through my body that it might not cause any damage to that area?

As for what’s scarier, I guess both are, but if I had to pick one, I’d say knife as well. As I have accidently cut myself before, I kind of know what getting cut feels like (of course nothing compared to an actual slash attack) and so just seeing a sharp knife makes me “feel” the pain a blade can cause. On the other end of the spectrum, I have never been shot before, so I can only guess at the pain a bullet wound would cause. So, while I fully realize how dangerous getting shot would be, I have never personally experienced this, so seeing a gun might scare me a little bit less for that reason than the idea of getting cut. I assume that if I got shot even once, though, I would quickly change my mind. :):

Kicking knives out of someone’s hand, that’s obviously a risky move, although it MAY work if you are really, really good. I’ve seen Eyal Yanilov do it once during a demonstration (he taught us HAND defenses against knife threats, but threw that kick in there just once for the fun of it (slap kick I think it was) and made the knife fly halfway across the room. So if you’ve got the talent and it’s right there for you it may work, but hand defenses are obviously a lot safer.

_________________
Giantkiller

[jeremy-stafford]

Re: Knife or gun

quote Giant Killer:

Does this apply to all parts of the skeletal system, or just the most dense parts? If a bullet fired at close range (maybe 5-10 feet away) hit one of my ribs, could it happen that it would not penetrate? Would it shatter my rib, but not enter the body further (be somehow deflected away from my body? Or would it be deflected into my body? What about a bullet being fired through my chest and hitting my spine? Would this most likely paralyze or kill me, or is there a chance that the bullet will lose enough velocity while going through my body that it might not cause any damage to that area?_________________
Giantkiller

I have seen results from shootings that show everything from bullet deflection off of skulls at close range with big bullets (.45), to small, high velocity (9mm) bullets deflecting off of Femurs and proceeding through the leg. I have seen the ribs stop small (.25 ACP) bullets, but be penetrated by smaller (.22) bullets. There are numerous variables that can affect the round. With handguns, there is always a chance that the bullet will lose enough velocity upon initial penetration to preclude a vital injury to the internal organs.

[vwr32]

Re: Knife or gun

quote Jeremy Stafford:

I have seen results from shootings that show everything from bullet deflection off of skulls at close range with big bullets (.45), to small, high velocity (9mm) bullets deflecting off of Femurs and proceeding through the leg. I have seen the ribs stop small (.25 ACP) bullets, but be penetrated by smaller (.22) bullets. There are numerous variables that can affect the round. With handguns, there is always a chance that the bullet will lose enough velocity upon initial penetration to preclude a vital injury to the internal organs.

Isn’t bullet deflection a desired effect in some ammo? In addition to being lighter thus being able to carry more ammo, and causing injuries vs killing the person (injuries requires attention from other soldiers, therefore it’s better to wound than kill so they say etc), I think a drill instructor told us once the reason we used 5.56 instead of 7.62 (comparing m-16a2 to something like the ak47) was the amount of damage it did. According to him, the round was likely to not pass right thru. Meaning the entry and exit wounds (if it exited) would make a really nasty path thru the body.

[jeremy-stafford]

Re: Knife or gun

quote vwr32:

Isn’t bullet deflection a desired effect in some ammo? In addition to being lighter thus being able to carry more ammo, and causing injuries vs killing the person (injuries requires attention from other soldiers, therefore it’s better to wound than kill so they say etc), I think a drill instructor told us once the reason we used 5.56 instead of 7.62 (comparing m-16a2 to something like the ak47) was the amount of damage it did. According to him, the round was likely to not pass right thru. Meaning the entry and exit wounds (if it exited) would make a really nasty path thru the body.

In the M16’s original incarnation, it launched a short 55 grain bullet out of a barrel that had a 1 in 12 twist (the rifling made one complete rotation every 12 inches). The result of this was that the round would yaw in flight (imagine a thrown football, even in a tight spiral the tip wobbles in flight). Thus when the round impacted something (hopefully a body), it would become unstable and begin to tumble, causing more damage than a bullet that size normally would. When the Military switched to a heavier, longer (62 grain) bullet fired out of the M16-A2’s 1 in 7 inch twist barrel, we gave up that extra damage to gain extra downrange accuracy and penetration (the 62 grain bullet has a hardened steel penetrator in it).

I was told the same thing about the damage in Boot Camp, but that is actually a Sea Tale (Urban Myth). The extra damage was an unintended benefit, the Military felt the true benefit was in the system itself (lighter and more ergonomical) and the fact that the Warfighter would be able to carry an increased load of ammunition due to the smaller, lighter round.

[mara-jade]

Re: Knife or gun

quote kpalena:

Which scares you more? My thinking is that only one part of the gun is deadly…but the whole knife is…I worry more about the knife.

Not that EITHER one is NOT bad for your insides but geez, enough slashing of that knife and you could end up looking like a fountain

[giant-killer]

Re: Knife or gun

So, what does it feel like to be shot? Is the feeling similar to getting punched or stabbed? If the bullet doesn’t hit a vital organ, should you still be able to function enough to fight (if shot in the chest)? Does a bullet wound bleed more or less than a knife wound? Which one is more dangerous, a stab wound or a bullet wound (if the bullet/knife hits the exact same area, on the same person)?

_________________
Giantkiller

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