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\”But what really grabs my a$$ is when a BB comes up to us and says that the things we learn in KM…\”
BB? I’m stymied.
I’m clearly feeling a bit negative on this topic lately, but I can’t help but comment…
I love how you guys think: when we pass people and grow the system, we’re watering it down; when we fail people, it’s \”politics.\”
No, none of you claimed it was politics, but JL just passes along a thing he heard, and giantkiller comments that she \”doesn’t know\” if politics are involved.
The truth is, it’s the opposite: we pass people because we see instructor qualities in them. We fail people because they aren’t good enough.
GK,
I just want to comment on your post about going into level 2 without testing. I think that is or would have been an awesome idea in my case. It is frustrating to know that you are ready to test and have to wait for other that just don’t get it. I understand everyone is different and learns differently, but why hold back people cuz of it. I would have been thrilled to take level 2 cuz I was ready and then test when a group was ready to test. 🙂
MasedKat,
BB= Black Belt..in this instance the person was a 5th dan Karate. His comments about KM was made in front of his students who also attended. It was a great compliment to KM.Mr. Whitman,
Any and all instructors I have met in KM have been nothing short of competent and professional. My comments are NOT politically motivated. I simply was sharing the feelings of frustration that is running rampant through our L2 class. Most of us have been here for the long haul and were some of the first students of KM in the area. Not passing due to lack of performance is and should be the standard! I’m not and haven’t disputed that fact. It’s just disconcerting when we want to move up in our own abilities and continue on our quest to learn even more in the higher levels, yet cannot due to someone elses lack of performance(failing). We are losing students because of this fact. That’s what bothers me the most. I have no quick fix on this, I’m stating what is happening here, nothing else! I would think that like in any business, feedback from customers is paramount to positive change. But maybe that’s just my way of thinking.JasonM,
While I understand the frustration you must have felt from not having an opportunity to test, you speak as though extra training on the fundamentals was somehow detrimental to your training. I believe the opposite is true.
Having just facilititated a test over the weekend, it was generally true (with some exceptions), that the people who took their time in Level 1 and were not in a particular rush to test were sharper, more comfortable, more aggressive, and performed better under pressure than those who had less time.
Also, the testing procedure for Krav Maga, unlike many traditional martial arts, is one of the things that keeps it pure. I sat on a testing panel for a Tang Soo Do school for 5 years. Not one person failed in that time, and literally hundreds of students came through. The reason was because the test itself was a formality. If a student asked to test and was not ready, they simply did not test.
I’ve never heard of a student in KM being advanced without a test and I’ve never heard of a test in KM simply being a formality. There is always the chance of failure, because the authenticity of the test means that the accomplishment is genuine. The instructor certifications I’ve participated in at the NTC in LA have meant a great deal to me personally, specifically because the burden was 100% on me to be good enough to pass, and the instructors at the NTC take it upon themselves to give in every way imaginable to make me that good. I wouldn’t want it any other way.
From what I know, tests are not required, as long as the teacher believes you are good enough to go on to the next level. Maybe this has changed? I remember long ago, there even was some talk about getting rid of the belt system all together.
I think advancing people without a test could be a good alternative in cases where there are not enough people ready to test. Of course it’s always good to work on your fundamentals, but after a while you may simply get bored doing the same stuff over and over again and want to do something new. If you are qualified, I think you should be able to do so.
As for me saying I \”don’t know\”, I wasn’t trying to imply anything with that. I don’t know any of the people involved and so whether or not that is indeed a true allegation isn’t something I could judge.
Quote JL: \”I would think that like in any business, feedback from customers is paramount to positive change.\” I believe that’s true.
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GiantkillerIMO – Being able to learn more advanced techniques (i.e., Level II or higher) without testing is one thing. Advancing through the system without ever being tested is quite another. I suppose it depends on some degree what your goals are. For perspective at opposite ends of the spectrum: If you \”only\” hope to be able to defened yourself against basic attacks, you may never want to move past Level II or III. If you want to become an instructor, you (IMHO) should strive for nothing less than a brown or black belt, in order to not only advance your own training, but to be able to offer the best \”product\” to your students.
If someone has been in Level I classes for months, a year, whatever, and they are a dedicated student who trains hard and has demonstrated their competency in Level I techniques, yet for whatever reason there has not been a Level II test offered, why not allow them to take a level II class? However at some point, again IMHO, testing should be required to continue to advance.
BTW – I’ve only been doing this for a relatively short time, but have learned that continuing in Level I classes is extremely important, in order to maintain proficiency in the fundamentals. Have you ever participated in a Level III class (for example) and had to remind someone of how to defend a choke from the side? Point being; for those of you advancing (or ready to advance) from I to II, II to III etc … Pick up some \”lower level\” classes regularly – You’ll be glad you did!
\”I think advancing people without a test could be a good alternative in cases where there are not enough people ready to test.\”
Can any instructors / school owners comment on this? How many people really need to take part in a test in order to be ‘worth it’ to you? I would think that it wouldn’t take more than a handfull, especially if there is a charge associated with the test and the school is open and available on test day anyway … It seems to me that as an instructor / school owner, you’d (at least I’d) be interested in advancing every student that you can, as soon as they are ready … It seems that it would only benefit the school.
Coming from someone who neither teaches nor owns his own business (in other words, \”for what it’s worth\”) this seems like kind of a weak reason not to have a test.
Thanks
KravMDJeff,
I agree and am so glad that krav test are not a formatlity. It definitely is a great accomplishment to know that after giving blood, sweat, etc in that 3 hour test it was worth it when passed.
I dunno, maybe I am being a little selfish when I know other are ready to ove forward and yet we are held back when others aren’t ready.
I definitely agree with always taking L1 or basics classes. You can never learn enough basics. 🙂 One that that struck me as odd was my previous intructor told us (L2) that once we passed into level 2 we could not take the basics class anymore. Not sure what that was about.
– Jason
Testing is not optional. To advance you have to test. The tests are designed to push you and test your limits as well as your technique.
To All,
Though I am sort of frustrated and a little disenchanted, we still must have a testing system.
Here is my thinking on this:
If the person that is instructing you needs to show his/her abilities in order to teach/test. Then it makes nothing but sense to me that a student would need to show his/her abilities to move on to the next level of instruction. It keeps the system pure! Standards are important in anything thats worth achieving. How else will we know when we really are proficient at our craft? So moving people up into higher levels of instruction without a formal way of knowing that persons real ability would be irresponsible of the systen itself, IMHO.
And as an aside, I believe going back and working out with L1 is a huge advantage in staying sharp. It also helps you refine motor-skills,technique, and also to see some of the common mistakes that new students often make. In this way, if one was to entertain becoming an Instructor themselves, their exposure to this is a great tool. Also MHO! 😉Jason,
I like it when my level 2 students take a level 1 class. I believe it sets a good precedent of remaining teachable even when you’ve been evaluated on a curriculum. The only reason I could see an instructor saying that level 2 students should not take a level 1 class is because of logistical concerns like mat-space or time constraints, etc.
kravjeff,
A school owner or instructor has great freedom to run tests and promotions however they see fit, so long as it does not compromise the integrity of the system. The issue JasonM is speaking about, while understandably frustrating for him, does not detract from the strength of Krav Maga as a system. At Krav Maga Maryland we pattern our testing procedures closely after the National Training Center, which seems to work quite well in the dual goals that John outlined.
JL,
My encouragement to you is this: do whatever it takes to challenge yourself and stay motivated in the interim while you are waiting for a L3 class. This may be a tremendous opportunity for you to take your internal training motivation to a new level.
Hey,
Too much talk about testing. What does it mean? Ok there must be standards for any system to regulate instructors and students. There is no finer mechanism than testing. But that is the only purpose it serves. It is not a designation of any type of superiority or exceptional skills.
I mean I have met Black belts from all systems and some are more skilled than others. So what does the rank mean? Nothing. Nothing at all. When I tested as an instructor on of the instructors in the class had an issue with some of the techniques I performed. We talked about it and after both sides were discussed, along with input from the other instructors at the test it was determined that I in fact had satisified the requirements. So the idea that an instructor failed the test without explanation is horse shit!
Man up and admit you failed. Of course you can imagine the issue this may cause for a school owner if he had to go back and admit he failed the final phase? We don’t test at our school at all! You are invited to move forward by Roger. It is that simple. I like it that way because each student is moved forward at a rate of their own ability and Roger must see them perform the techniques required in class on a consistent basis in order for them to progress. It is a different method but very effective.
In the end I say to each his own. Black belt, brown belt who cares. Your rank will not save you. Only training,agression and ability will.
I agree, in a street fight belt level doesn’t mean much. As for class, I think instructors definitely should be tested, since they will be teaching the techniques to others. Regular students however, as long as they know their techniques, it may be okay to let them advance without the test at least into LV 2, maybe 3.
I remember years ago, there was a guy at the NTC, who was also teaching sometimes, but was still only a green belt, because he didn’t like taking tests out of principle. He was really good, though and at some point, because he was instructing also, they convinced him to take the Blue Belt test, which he passed without a problem.
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GiantkillerGK,
I’m not trying to be pedantic with this comment, but when an individual states or writes anything, regardless of intention, it’s always open to interpretation.
Leading with the \”I don’t know if it’s politics or not\” adds validity to the possibility they maybe it was, and someone will interpret it as such. Perception is always more important than reality unfortunately, especially in your case as you’re clearly a long standing member of the forum as well as exceedingly experienced in KM in general.
Regarding testing, I think it should be required: unless one can perform the techniques at one’s absolute physical worst then they aren’t of any value. After my 6th week even Junior’s drills aren’t dropping me to the floor anymore, which really makes any assessment when I’m moderately fresh doing a technique invalid. The testing (I’m assuming it’s akin to the L1 test I did many years ago which was the hardest thing I’ve done physically in more than a decade, maybe ever), is a mechanism to display whether a student has command of a technique or not, after a massive amount of effort and stress. It’s not going to be perfect (even the best individual at a task can always improve), but it’s got to be effective.
As for L1 / L2 mix, I fully expect to continue to take L1 classes even after I pass the test: there’s still going to be significant value in them for the foreseeable future. Regarding the boredom, pick a specific portion of the exercise to really focus on, even a straight punch has a whopping amount of different things to consider (recoil, rotation, body tension, etc) when it comes to speed and power generation.
As for having L2 students in my classes currently, it’s a valuable psychological benefit to see people, who aren’t instructors, perform the techniques at a high degree of efficiency. There’s a very real tendency in many people to feel its ok to not measure up to people who are way above them in an ability (such as instructors, or in my class, the guy that’s obviously taken a different MA form for years), but then when taking a round kick (which I’d mostly given up on) from a L2 student and having to absorb as much force from it as most people’s front kicks gives a much different perspective… that I should be able to do that.
Beach
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