Sparring

[kravjeff]

\”You again make the mistake of thinking you know the mind set of a larger man. As much as I respect you as a training partner, you don’t. Please do not assume that we are all overconfident and don’t know what we are doing. To ask how we would react to getting hit multiple times by a skilled opponent is meaningless. Anyone can be beaten if taken by surprise. My point is that toe-to-toe sparring is not realistic. Ask James about this. Ask him if he hasn’t asked the larger guys in class to reign back their size advantage in fight class.\”

AL –

First let me say that the respect is mutual, and I enjoy training with you, and everyone at our school. I was speaking in what I perceive as generalities, not in direct response to what you said, though your post did influence some of my points. I agree, and have learned from James that toe to toe sparring is unrealistic, and if I implied differently I apologize for the confusion. I don’t think that because I may spar well against a larger opponent (which I don’t think I did against you the other night during that awkward drill) that I could \”take them\” on the street, which is why my example of multiple attacks was completely unrelated to sparring – I didn’t mean to blur the line between the two. Incidentally, there are 4-5 people in our school who frankly, I’m glad they don’t go 100% while sparring (I’ll have to thank James for the restraint 😉 ) – I don’t mind getting my ass kicked now and again, but I’d never learn anything!!!

\”if a smaller person merely relies on tenacity and the never say die attitude and attempts to exchange with the bigger person. I would tell you more times than not it will end badly for the little guy.\”

Psyops –

I agree 100% – In the cases where I \”held my own\” that I mentioned in the other post, there was more than one occasion that I was lucky it was broken up when it was … I shouldn’t have left that out. I also agree that sparring is NOT a measure of self defense / street fighting, though I believe it is a valuable training tool.

KJ

[esco]

yeah i notice the same thing. when i show up to class (kickboxing) i am usually pretty good doing the sparring holding my techniques, but my coach emphasizes body conditioning, me and my wife love it cuz dude works us half to death. he splits the class into 3 groups so at any given time you are either sparring, practicing technique (working the bags), or doing conditioning (running, jumping jacks, jump rope, speed bag, crunches, squats, push ups, etc.). we usually get in two full rotations and then some for every class. after a while i get tired, i tend to get sloppy with my sparring and techniques, dropping guard, and i’ll be the first to tell you my technique (punches, follow through, pivots) they all go to sh!t at this point, making stupid mistakes in general. but yeah it must be a universal thing since i’m apparently not the only one.

[anonymous]

Al,

When you spar against a guy your own size, do you hit him with 100% power? If yes, you’re doing something wrong. Sparring is for learning, not for winning. So, while you are holding back when you’re going against a little guy, you are also holding back going against a big one, making the sparring unrealistic in both cases.

I think overconfidence can happen for smaller as well as for larger people, but generally I would assume bigger guys would be more prone to it – if you are exceptionally big and everyone you see walking in the street is smaller than you, of course you are likely to think that you could easily defeat any of those guys. It would be a logical conclusion. And unless you are trained or have been in street fights, you may not consider the other factors such as possible weapons.

As a small person I know that most people I may have to fight will be bigger than me. I know this is a disadvantage. As a result, I’d be less likely to go out and look for trouble. Why fight a guy twice my size if I don’t have to? I know it will be hard, if not impossible to beat him. The occassional sparring with some really large guys at the NTC would be unlikely to make me think otherwise.

In a way I think we all agree, size is a factor, but not the only one. The smaller person has a natural disadvantage, but he might overcome it with willpower, technique, the element of surprise, deploying a weapon or any combination of these things. All things equal, the big guy will have the edge. But all things are not always equal.

As for the Aikido teacher complaining about big guys not using technique or resisting too much, this reminds me of BJJ classes. In BJJ we are also told not to resist initially (this goes for all students, no matter their size), so that we can learn how to do the move correctly and when to use it in the fight. If your partner resists, there may be another move you should do instead of the one the teacher told you to practice. So it may become harder for you to learn the correct moves if you are constantly resisting. And good technique will only make things easier, even if you are so big that you feel you could pull off the move with pure strength alone.

I agree sparring is generally not very realistic when preparing for a street fight. However, a very small portion of a sparring session could occur during an altercation in the street. You may argue with a guy, he throws a punch, you see it, defend, counter, maybe he moves his head, punches back, you counter again… Basically a small exchange of punches at the end of which one person may emerge victorious, or at least you may have a chance to get away. So, while there may not be a lot of circling and jabbing and sizing each other up, there may be a brief flurry of punches and sparring can help to develop vision to see and counter those punches so you could then get the better of your opponent in that situation. So, yes, it’s a useful training tool.

[kravjeff]

A few posts back, Psyops said:

\”Yet the smaller folks get all geeked up and excited and they throw hard at me. Or worse than that, they begin to stalk and stand in front of me and throw.\”

And Al said:

\”I know it must seem that the larger people are over-confident in their fighting abilities, but I think this is often a coping mechinism developed by smaller people that allows them to continue with their training and ignore the law of physics.\”

I think that maybe you \”big guys\” have us all wrong.

I for one, tend to \”stand and trade\” and sometimes \”stalk\” everyone I spar against. For me, this is not over-confidence in my ability, nor is it ego. It is solely confidence in my training partner – Trust that the guy that outweighs me by 75 lbs isn’t going hit me with everything he’s got. We’re both holding back (not going 100%) which levels the playing field when there are rules.

I don’t spar this way because I think I can \”take them\” but because I’m trying to improve my technique, the same way I would with someone my own size. If I throw too hard (which happens on occasion against large and small) it’s lack of experience and control, which I’m getting better at. Never has it been because I’m sparring against someone larger, or out of anger.

Are we not supposed to \”trade\” with you because of your size? Are we to run, or try to diffuse the situation as we would in the street? Sincerely, what would you have us do differently, that would be beneficial to both partners? I think (and I know in my case) that your assumption that these things occur due to over-confidence or lack of respect is incorrect.

[al]

First, let me apologize for having taken this thread from the topic of \”sparring\” to the topic of \”does size matter in sparring\”. I think this subject has been beat to death before. Big guys will always see it one way, and smaller guys will see it another, and never the twain shall meet.
At the school I train at, I’m lucky enough to have the opportunity to train with some fairly large guys. We each have a feel for how hard the other guy can hit and adjust our training accordingly. Do we spar 100% full out with each other? Rarely. Do we train at 100% on punching and kicking drills? You bet! I train with two guys that punch so hard they have bruised me through a kick shield. We limit how hard we go when paired with smaller people. Do I think that smaller people are holding back? Some are, but I’ve sparred with guys who get frustrated, start swearing, and start swinging for the fences. I had a guy during a light sparring drill jump up in the air and do a \”Superman\” punch after the timer rang because he was frustrated.
I had another guy swing at me so hard he fell down when I ducked. These were all smaller guys. The larger folk that I train with seem to have more control over their sparring ability, and nothing to prove in sparring class. I find that smaller men have to try to prove something during sparring, where as it’s a no win situation for a big guy if you get caught up in that bullshit competition attutide. I’m expected to be better that the smaller guy, but I’m also expected to show more control and not hurt him.

[g-v]

Re:

Al, that may have something to do more with maturity level rather than size, no?

You don’t think you’re overgeneralizing this size thing, are ya? I’m 5’8\”, I’ve sparred with dudes bigger with me, I’ve never done all that stuff you’re talking about.

[anonymous]

Neither have I, but I can see your frustration. However, there are bigger people, who do this kind of thing, too. I believe it’s a personality thing, rather than a size thing. I’ve had some guys a lot bigger than me hit me extra hard, with the intend to hurt, rather than to learn (or because it was an accident). Some are jerks. Some are insecure and feel good about themselves, if they \”win\” the fight (which they don’t really do, because they are hitting you hard and you go a lot lighter). Some may simply not like you and use the sparring as an oportunity to get in some cheap shots.

If this happens to me, as a small person, it causes a dilemma: I can hit harder, too, trying to hurt him back, but then the other guy will go harder and if he’s bigger, in the end, I’ll lose. As a bigger guy, you could just turn it up a notch, put him in his place. Also, if possible, try to avoid sparring with that person. If it’s a really bad case, maybe talk to the teacher. Unless of course the guy trying to hurt you IS the teacher and then you are simply screwed…. 😉

[al]

Each of us, try as we might, carry our own baised opinions with us. For GiantKiller, being small in stature, but big in heart, she can probably site more \”Big guys have something to prove\” incidents than I can imagine. I on the other hand, being larger than many of my training partners, have experienced more \”Little guys with a chip on their shoulder\” type incidents. Neither of us is wrong, we just each exist in our seperate realities based on our real life experiences.
So, for the record, sparring is an excellent training device. I enjoy it greatly. It should be a fun learning experience that assists you in improving your skills. I know that that is what it is at my school.

[g-v]

Re:

quote \”Al\:

Neither of us is wrong, we just each exist in our seperate realities based on our real life experiences.

Alright dude, I could roll with that.

[kravjeff]

Again, I really appreciate all of the great feedback. However, I was really hoping for some direct responses to my last post.

Some of you big guys, apparently suprised that us smaller guys would actually \”trade\” with you during sparring, seem to have this \”how dare you\” attitude – How could we so bold, so stupid as to think we could stand with you? Again I’ll state for the record that it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with my partner – Respect and trust that he’s not going to pummel me. I expect to get hit – I expect that it might hurt – I also trust that everyone I train with, large or small, is going to go 30, 50, 75% – Whatever is agreed upon. I don’t expect anyone to go lighter than I do, but trust that they won’t go harder.

So, regarding training and barring possibilities in a street fight, I’ll ask again:

\”Are we not supposed to \”trade\” with you because of your size? Are we to run, or try to diffuse the situation as we would in the street? Sincerely, what would you have us do differently, that would be beneficial to both partners? I think (and I know in my case) that your assumption that these things occur due to over-confidence or lack of respect is incorrect.\”

p.s. Al – did you really mean it when you said \”I’m expected to be better that the smaller guy, but I’m also expected to show more control and not hurt him.\”??? Better? Really? I know you, though not well, but I can’t help but think that you must’ve meant something else … And for the record, this has nothing to do with me – I see you as a more experienced, more advanced student, and I am in no way implying that I am \”better\” than or equal to you in ablility.

[anonymous]

I can kind of see what Al is saying. If he hits a smaller guy too hard, he is a jerk. If the little guy goes crazy on him, then maybe he isn’t tough enough. That sort of thinking wouldn’t be fair.

I also know what he means about little guys having something to prove – there are some guys like that at the NTC. However, not all small guys are like that (it really is a small minority) and those guys usually don’t just hurt the big guys, they hurt the ones smaller than themselves just as much. It may have started out as a big/small thing at some point in their lives, but has since transformed itself into an unfortunate personality trait (they have become mean). I’m not even sure whether they are fully aware of this themselves or not – some admonish you for hitting them too hard (sometimes in retaliation), but then they act as though you are a softie, because their not agreed upon 100% power punch just knocked the wind out of you or rattled your brain to the point of seeing white flashes. That’s the part that makes them feel good I guess. \”I’m so strong, I just knocked this guy out.\” \”He begged me to go lighter.\” etc. But, as I have said, those types of guys are a small minority in my opinion.

[al]

Jeff-
For the sake of arguement, let’s say each of us using maximum strength can bench press our body weight once. I move 243 lbs and you move 170 lbs. Someone then tells us to bang out some reps at 30% of our maximum. You put 51 lbs on the bar, and I put 73 lbs on the bar. We are each using 30%, but my 30% has me moving roughly 22 lbs more than you. ( I’m sure one of you math wizards will work out a better example of what I’m saying 😀 ) My 30% is more than your 30%, so for the sake of sparring, yes I do hold back. James ( our chief instructor ) has specifically taken myself and another student aside and asked us to tone it down when working with smaller students.
I’ve never stated that smaller people should not \”stand and trade\” in sparring class. My fear is that it gives some people the idea to do this in real life. I think you are taking offense where none was intended.
I meant exactly what I wrote. ( I’m expected to be better than the smaller guy, but I’m also expected to show more control and not hurt him.)
If I clearly dominate a smaller partner, so what? He learns nothing from my using my reach and strength advantage. I have wasted his training time. If a smaller opponent out-spars me, I look like an idiot. I truely can’t explain this to you without it sounding arrogant. I don’t spar seriously with most of the people smaller than me. It just isn’t fair to them. That said, there are always exceptions; James Hiromasa, John Sanders, and a few others at the school can generally beat me like a drum. By and large though, my size gives me an advantage over many guys and makes sparring less fun than it should be.

[psyops]

Well,

I do not have a \”how dare you\” attitude when a little guy wants to trade. i am more concerned that this individual may leave that sparring session believing that this is the proper technique to use. Certainly running away is not an option in that instance. Howver movement, angles and defense should be a priority when the size difference is grezt!

Yes Giantkiller is correct. There are people at the NTC with \”Billy Badass\” syndrome. They see a big guy and they get all excited. There are some big guys out there who are nothing but big goons when they spar with little guys. They simply bull rush and overwhelm their smaller opponent, skill is not required for this.

If a little guy gets too carried away then he is going to catch one from me. Same goes for a big guy though. Sparring is about trust and learning. Big guys are not immune to some of the same ego games that little guys play. The key is to communicate with your partner. The point here is simple. People will fight as they practice .Truthfully no one should be standing directly in front of any opponent. This is not Krav Maga. This is Ego Maga!

[kravjeff]

AL, Psyops, et al …

Sincere apologies all around – I see better now, the points you are making and appreciate the dialogue.

Al, I mentioned it before, but I’ll say it again. I’m glad that some people \”hold back.\” I wouldn’t want to take a full shot from you, James, John, Hunter, Joe etc … Also, I agree that your 30% isn’t my 30%, but there has to be a way to make it more equal, without you (or others) holding back so much that it benefits neither participant. If I spar with someone, anyone, I would hope, (and expect) that they wouldn’t go any harder than I was, but I would also hope and expect that they tested me. It doesn’t have to be with strength of punches or kicks. It may be that they do use their advantages (reach for example) so that I will continue to learn. For example, I’ve learned when I spar with bigger guys to get inside to take away the reach advantage – I wouldn’t have learned that without taking jab after jab from a bigger partner. Hell, we all hold back sometimes. I don’t go any harder against less skilled / experienced / smaller partners than they feel comfortable with. I guess my point is, if there is an agreed upon level, I would hope that \”big guys\” don’t fight below that level – Otherwise it benefits no one. Hit me next time – You’ll know if it was too hard either from my sudden unconciousness, the blood, the expression on my face, or I’ll tell you 😉 In all seriousness, If we do spar again, we can work up to a level where we’re both comfortable – Hopefully that way, it won’t be a waste for either of us.

I agree 100% that if a smaller guy takes his \”successes\” against a larger opponent, especially if that opponent wasn’t really \”trying,\” to the street, he or she will be in for a rude awakening. I also agree that if a smaller person (or anyone for that matter) gets carried away, they deserve to have their bell rung – I’ve been in that situation as well – Big and Small is not mutually exclusive as Psyops ointed out.

Thanks again for the great dialogue! 8)

[anonymous]

Yes, great discussion.

Regarding the percentages, I think you would have to take that as a generalization and then apply it to the opponent you are facing. For example, if the teacher says \”70% impact\” and the person in front of you is half your size, you should go much lighter than that. However, if the person is twice as big, it would be okay to go harder, especially to the body (but still be careful going to the head, though).

I understand how it must suck for big people to go against little guys sometimes. I can usually go pretty hard against most opponents, because in my case many are 150% to 200% of my own weight, sometimes bigger (as Al or Psyops would be). In those cases, I can throw pretty hard punches and kicks. If I then go against a much smaller person about my own weight I hold back a lot more and I realize how hard it is to spar that way. You are barely moving your arms around and can’t put anything behind it. It’s still useful in other ways, but maybe not as beneficial. So, if you are always bigger than your opponent and have to hold back all of the time, I can see how it would be difficult.

As for jerks – people who hit you hard for their own amusement or self-esteem, I think it’s fair to say that some of them are big and some small. As a very small person, I feel that, in the stand-up classes, the big guys treat me okay for the most part. However, in the groundfighting, I’ve noticed some bigger guys being reluctant to fight me, thinking that, because I’m so much smaller, it would be very embarrassing for them, if they don’t submit me right away. Then it’s possible that they end up trying so hard that they don’t really care if they hurt something or not, just to get that submission. I’ve had some injuries (all minor, though) from some of these experiences. On one occasion, a guy twice my size caught my ankle in a heel hook and, before I had any chance to tap, turned his whole body around, going for that submission and severly twisting it (thankfully nothing broken). Still sucked, because I couldn’t train for weeks.

Another time, years ago, I was sparring with a guy and caught him in a triangle choke, making him tap. After that, I could tell he was avoiding to fight me. Then, during one class, I asked him to spar and he said he wasn’t sure whether he should, because what if I were to submit him again, how would he explain that to his girlfriend? 😆 Those are usually new guys, though, still a bit unsure of what to do, the veterans are all great to work with.

[Author]

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