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Hi everyone,
i just perused this thread, and i want to clarify somthing as an instructor…
I will ask larger people with hard, heavy hands to lighten up on smaller people IF the smaller person is not a good enough fighter to avoid being hit cleanly by the larger (and no offense but often slower) partner. Let’s explore this (don’t get on me for the math please);Fighter A @ 150lbs has a lbs/per/sq/inch punch of X
Fighter B @ 250lbs has a lbs/per/sq/inch punch of X*1.6
The larger fighter (for the most part) can also ‘take’ a slightly harder punch than the smaller one simply due to the amount of mass one must move to affect the brain. (weight classes in pro fighting backs this up)Fighter A needs to be a slightly better skilled fighter to be able to go toe to toe with Fighter B, simply for the fact that ‘A’ must be able to avoid more punches that ‘B’ can simply ‘eat’ and counter.
Bottom line…i generally don’t ask bigger guys to lighten up when the smaller ones in fight class are skilled enough to move around and even out the odds a bit. Usually that means that the smaller fighter must be a more skilled fighter than the bigger one.
Also, if a smaller fighter takes advantage of a bigger one lightening up, then all bets are off! However it often is misread by BOTH parties; i.e. the smaller guy gets hit by the bigger guys 50% and it feels like 100%, so smaller guy fires back. Bigger guy is not really getting hurt, but since smaller guy can be faster, bieng hit by more blows seems like smaller guy is going 100% rather than 50% so bigger guy hits a bit harder to compensate. This is why controlled fighting escalates and it’s ALL related to ego though often masked by ‘fairness’.
At the risk of sounding self patronizing, trust you instructors judgement. They are there for that very reason; an objective point of view to ensure that everyone can learn. By limiting the bigger fighters power, it forces him/her to move more. By slowing down the smaller ones movements, it makes them choose their targets more wisely and forces them to learn to deliver more power per strike.
So I know this topic has been beat to death but I canít resist. (For reference and not because I think it makes me better or worse than anybody..I am 6í5íí 260 pounds with not much fat..more than I like but not much)
As far as Krav goes, IMO the best thing that comes out of sparring is someone realizing that they can get hit and hit back. Just overcoming the flight response for some people is a tremendous gain, and then they start to make tremendous gains in their training.
On the flip side of that same coin, I think getting hit might make a few of those folks who think that because they have taken Krav for (substitute duration because I have seen it at all levels) that maybe they are not such a Billy badazz and need to rethink their approach to things.
The whole size thing. Well I think a bunch of good points have been brought up here and they are all true to one extent or the other. I will tell you that a smaller guy realistically learns jack poop about self-defense from sparring with a big guy. Until you feel the power that can go behind a well trained big strong guy with good technique, then you have not learned didly (in that type of self-defense situation). I do think that from a sport/fun/technique factor we can all learn things from sparring with different sized people. Things like getting inside, distraction, combating speed, and keeping people out are all things that can be workedÖI just donít think there is a tremendous gain on the self-defense side.
James, with all deference to your experience and accomplishments, I did want to disagree with one thing, the whole taking a punch thing. I will agree that what you said may hold true with the body, but not on head shots. A potentially concussive strike has much more to do with the strikerís force than the size of the noodle of the stricken. I think that weight classes do support this in that you donít tend to see as many knock outs in the lighter boxing divisions as you do in the heavy weight fights (just my observation).
I don’t care what size you are, when you spar you know if your partner is trying to hurt you or hitting you harder then he/she needs to. I spar big guys and before we go at it I’m thinking shit, this is going to hurt. If a big guy wants to go 100% then so be it, but that isn’t sparring that is fighting and all sparring rules are out the window. Come on, if you get hit during sparring and the guy keeps coming at you and his punches are getting harder and harder, it is your duty to drop him. But to think that because you aren’t allowed to hit a smaller guy hard it is hurting your training is crazy. The best way to get a more powerful punch is to practice speed, with speed comes power. There isn’t really any need for small or large guys to hit hard. Are school’s sparring is always 10% power, 100% percent speed.
James – Thanks for chiming in !
Marine – \”I will tell you that a smaller guy realistically learns jack poop about self-defense from sparring with a big guy. Until you feel the power that can go behind a well trained big strong guy with good technique, then you have not learned didly (in that type of self-defense situation).\”
I agree with this, but only to a certain extent. If you and I were to go \”toe to toe\” (something I may not look forward to 😉 ) I think I would learn about self defense in as much as I would have to seriously work on my evasiveness, defense and countering … Otherwise, I’d get pummeled. Defending and avoiding punches is applicable to self defense, as is knowing what it feels like to get hit.
All of that being said, I think we can all agree that while sparring is not self defense, it is another training tool – There are lessons learned that can be applied to any type of fighting (sport or street).
My post came across a little strong I thinkÖI was shooting for some humor and it might have come across as some supreme knowledgeÖwhich as my wife would tell you I donít have any ofÖ
Heck, just the other day I was sparring, got clocked by a guy stronger (note not bigger) than meÖand turned my back. I was really irritated with that, but stuff happens
Re:
quote \”marine_mojo\:James, with all deference to your experience and accomplishments, I did want to disagree with one thing, the whole taking a punch thing. I will agree that what you said may hold true with the body, but not on head shots. A potentially concussive strike has much more to do with the strikerís force than the size of the noodle of the stricken. I think that weight classes do support this in that you donít tend to see as many knock outs in the lighter boxing divisions as you do in the heavy weight fights (just my observation).Leon Spinks was once asked, ìWhat is the toughest part of heavy weight fighting?î Leon replied, ìGetting hit by big strong men.î
\”I was shooting for some humor and it might have come across as some supreme knowledgeÖwhich as my wife would tell you I donít have any ofÖ \”
Knowledge, or supreme knowledge? 😉 I think our wives should get together for coffee – They’d have a lot to talk about.
I’ve \”said uncle\” during sparring too – Last week our instructor stood me up with an uppercut and I can still remember the exact look on his face (and perfect form with his left up next to his head covering) as his right cross was coming at me – I completely froze – I bet he remembers the look on my face as well! 😯 <— that’s me.
Luckily, my nose was bleeding bad enough that I had to stop – I’m looking forward to next time though!!! 😯 🙄 😀 (Do I \”look\” confused?) 😆
Anyway – I don’t mind \”getting beat\” by our instructors, but if I step out of a \”match\” with someone closer to my ability it pi$$es me off more than taking a beating.
I agree with kravjeff, sparring with big guys can be beneficial for self-defense purposes, as you are learning to see the punches and defending and/or evading them. I don’t care how big the guy is, if the punch doesn’t hit me, I’ll be alright. In an actual self-defense situation, hopefully I will see the attack, evade or defend and then get in a good counter, after which it would be perfectly all right to start running if possible. Sparring may help me to learn to see the attack and also what types of effective counters would be available.
As for the headshot thing, I’ve always wondered about that. It’s clear that a bigger person could take a harder shot to the body, but the head would seem equally vulnerable (and even more so sensitive areas, such as the nose). Does anyone know for sure?
\”As for the headshot thing, I’ve always wondered about that. It’s clear that a bigger person could take a harder shot to the body, but the head would seem equally vulnerable (and even more so sensitive areas, such as the nose). Does anyone know for sure?\”
Seeing as how Giantkiller is named after the guy and raised the question, it seems appropriate to bring up Keith Hackney vs. Immanuel Yarborough in UFC 3. Hackney would be hard pressed to stop that guy with body shots (although he could take a ton of those headshots). He managed to knock Yarborough down with one big slap (I wonder if that was a big desperation shot, or if Hackney had trained in Iron Palm, what with the tradition between white tiger kung fu and smashing solid objects). Other sumo wrestlers tell the tale in old UFCs- in #1, Gerrard Gordeau took out that sumo wrestler with a roundhouse kick and a punch to the head. In #9, Mark Hall TKO’d Koji Kitao, another sumo wrestler, with a wild punch that broke his nose and made him quit.
Good points. However, I agree with James (who made the point initially). I’m no physicist (not even sure I can spell physicist), but the basic anatomy of James’ point makes sense. For example; If you have a water balloon in a shoebox, and another equally dense water balloon in a larger, more \”solid\” box, it would take more force to break the water balloon in the larger, more solid box. The analogy (if not obvious) applies to the brain inside the skull … More force would be required to do the same amount of damage to the contents of a larger more solid box (the brain inside the skull). Now, I concede that the brain is more dense (pardon the pun) than a water balloon and the the difference between my skull and Psyops skull is likely not as dramatic as the difference between a shoebox and the solid box. And so, the force anaolgy may not apply directly (i.e., the difference in force between breaking the balloon would likely be less than the difference required to cause a concussive blow).
OW – My box and my brain hurt … Anyone else confused? 😆
lol maybe the smaller guys should train like bruce lee, then maybe they can even the odds with that infamous 3 inch punch. lol
kravjeff,
More than the initial impact needs to be considered.
Because of skeletal and muscular tension that naturally exists in the human body, once the head is displaced by the initial impact, that tension can \”snap\” or \”whip\” the head back in place. This throws the brain against the opposite side of the skull, as the skull now travels back towards its original position.
In this case, the damage can actually occur when the brain and cranium impact on the opposite side skull.
So your analogy needs some re-tooling, maybe spring or a bungee cord that connects the shoebox to a table/floor/base. 😉
By the way, this is also where boxers get the phrase \”roll with the punches.\”
Jon
Jon –
From a trauma / anatomy perspective, you’re absolutely correct. But how does this take into account the \”size difference\” ??? I think you’ve actually stregthened my point. Bigger guys often have that additional muscle, etc … They should be able to take a \”better\” or \”bigger\” punch. ❓
Give me a different analogy so that I can follow your logic.
In the case of the giant sumo wrestlers, could be that they are just not used to taking a punch (since there is no punching allowed in sumo wrestling). So, if they are new to MMA and not well-trained, could be that it’s easier to take them out for that reason.
I would think that a larger head may give some additional protection. Also, a big man’s neck muscles may be larger and stronger, which could make it more difficult for the smaller guy to get that head whipping around for the knockout punch.
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