tasers

[jeremy-stafford]

Re: tasers

quote Kirsten:

But, I initially did it because it is important you experience the OC spray and the Taser if you are going to carry them. You can articulate your use of force better if somebody tries to grab your weapon. You can testify first hand how dehabilitating that weapon can be and how your own body will respond to it being used on you. Not to mention, God forbid it actually happen- you will be better able to recover knowing what to expect, and hopefully get back into the fight.

This is our Company line also, but at this point in my career as a trainer, and having put hundreds of Police recruits through the Academy, I think I’m starting to see little value in it. We give them a baton, but don’t have them hit each other. We give them a gun but don’t have them shoot each other. What’s the difference? I think it’s just tradition. I did it, so you have to. Just like shaved heads and long sleeves on probation. If there’s any value in it, it’s the esprit that it builds. Not any tactical value. JMO.

[don]

Re: tasers

quote unstpabl1:

Thanks Kirsten for that response

Look how much trouble that cop had trying to take that little drunk guy to the ground.

It’s not always easy. In addition, IMO, I think he was trying to be “nice” about it.

I’m sure his ROE hindered him as striking on camera is’nt a good thing…

What is “ROE”? (rules of engagement?) Striking on camera isn’t a “good” OR “bad” thing – it just Is.

if your not going to let your officers strike or even choke..well you understand…..

Who/what isn’t “allowing” officers to strike or choke? We surely CAN do those things.

all you can do is attempt to restrain..

Misperception, misconception, or perhaps oversimplification. We can use force to effect an arrest, prevent escape, or overcome the resistance of another. We are NOT limited to “attempting to restrain” or “restraining”.

which leads to the question on wouldn’t a cop be better off trining in greco Roman, judo,wrestling, jujitsu both Nippon and brazilian as it seems more job applicable

As a supplement sure but not as a primary defensive tactics curriculum. Physical altercations/combat can take place in more than just clinching/grappling range and not just within sport/competition rules of engagement.

Is grappling more a factor in the Force training? I’ve heard the retention stuff is great. The krav program has to be really good, as so many depts have adopted it. But looking as a perspective student, who might want to be a cop, its a valid question to explore…no?:):

I really enjoy grappling/groundwork for exercise/training. I do NOT, however, want to be rolling around with a BG on duty by myself if I can help it. IMO, every LEO should have at a minimum: awareness of bad positions/situations in clinching range/on the ground, ability to minimize damage taken while in a bad position, ability to escape or reverse from very bad positions, ability to get back on his/her feet, etc.

IMO, it is a testament to KM and the instructors (not me) that not only so many law enforcement agencies but so many military and civilian personnel are also training in KM – officially as well as on their own.

[don]

Re: tasers

I personally still believe in exposure (chemical agents, Tasers, getting punched/kicked, etc). I don’t want my partner’s first experience to be next to me out in the field with the crap hitting the fan. I want them already knowing/experiencing what it feels like to have been OC’ed or shocked or kicked/punched and having developed the heart to fight through it. I don’t want them being surprised and nutting up, curling into a ball, or otherwise turning away/giving up. Going hands on with a chemical agent contaminated BG or BG being Tased happens all the time. If you get exposed to the chemical while subduing or accidentally shocked while controlling/cuffing, it should be “no big deal” and you should be able to simply continue on and get the job done.

If there was some way to safely approximate being shot or stabbed/cut, I’d be a supporter of that too…

[kirsten]

Re: tasers

If your going to be a cop, train in KM- because it saves officers lives. Plain a simple. A book could be written on officers accounts of using KM techniques they have learned then applied in the field after a short seminar.

Jeremy- I used to think that it was just a “rite of passage” more than a usefull thing also. I was a staunch support for not doing it, though I always felt like I had to because I didn’t want to be a “girl”. I would say “well I don’t have to get shot with my gun to know that its a bad thing if somebody takes it”. But then I realized, a gun is deadly force… and a baton strike can do the same in training if it goes wrong. A Taser hit or an OC spray is less lethal. Unlike the baton, the effects wear off faster than a broken arm or a sucking chest wound. And if you were ever a little brother or sister- its likely you have been hit with a stick more than once or twice.. lol

I too think that your first fight should be in a controlled enviroment at training instead of the street, freaking out because you got overspray or your hands between the probes. Even if its a short spray and not a face full, or a quick burst instead of 5 seconds- I think it has value. But every agency I have worked at it has been optional and not forced. We do take turns wearing the hit-man suit, getting shot during con-sims, and soon we will have the shock knives. 🙂

[chocolate-soldier]

Re: tasers

quote paul:

well i finally found the story and as many of you suspected it was a stun gun most likely.

In today’s BBC news – stun gun allegedly used in henious murder case.
The martial arts ‘expert’ supposedly used his skills to then choke his ex-partner, leaving little trace of the deed:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/surrey/8135927.stm

[paul]

Re: tasers

yes i was being sarcastic and hopefully humous

[michaelmall]

Re: tasers

Now we know how Steve’s wife keeps him in line.(don’t tase me hon)
Brent is there footage of you being tased?

[unstpabl1]

Re: tasers

Great responses….and I appreciate them. Understand that I’m very supportive of Krav, but also am willing to look at the criticisms. I bring them up here from time to time, to air them out. Most critics talk to hear themselves talk, but others bring POV’s we may not have seen. such as the 1st knife vid I posted the other day.

I’m not saying a cop can’t strike or choke…Doesn’t LAPD/LASD have a ban on chokes? what I was asking is that that in civilian krav, you probably would’ve popped the drunk, instead of standup grappled to get complience being that its more of a combatives/striking system and why is krav a better choice for officers than a grappling based system like hapkido, jujitsu, etc. Wasn’t it a LAPD statistic that 90% of all their fights went to the ground…Of course no one bothered to ask why. Because we take it there to cuff and restrain the actor.

Because of lawsuits and cameras, would the trooper been ok’d to pop the drunk to get complience as a preemptive? All these vids keep popping up, the citizenry in an outrage over excessive force because strikes were thrown. Its got to make a cop leery to act on his own behalf and that hesitancy to act seems dangerous to me

Thanks

[saruotoko]

Re: tasers

quote unstpabl1:

Great responses….and I appreciate them. Understand that I’m very supportive of Krav, but also am willing to look at the criticisms. I bring them up here from time to time, to air them out. Most critics talk to hear themselves talk, but others bring POV’s we may not have seen. such as the 1st knife vid I posted the other day.

I’m not saying a cop can’t strike or choke…Doesn’t LAPD/LASD have a ban on chokes? what I was asking is that that in civilian krav, you probably would’ve popped the drunk, instead of standup grappled to get complience being that its more of a combatives/striking system and why is krav a better choice for officers than a grappling based system like hapkido, jujitsu, etc. Wasn’t it a LAPD statistic that 90% of all their fights went to the ground…Of course no one bothered to ask why. Because we take it there to cuff and restrain the actor.

Because of lawsuits and cameras, would the trooper been ok’d to pop the drunk to get complience as a preemptive? All these vids keep popping up, the citizenry in an outrage over excessive force because strikes were thrown. Its got to make a cop leery to act on his own behalf and that hesitancy to act seems dangerous to me

Thanks

I love Hapkido and have a Black Belt in the style, but it takes way too long to become proficient in it, relative to KM….which is another inherent advantage in KM’s principle-based system. Thus, a likely reason why Krav Maga is the choice of LE agencies, as it incorporates grappling and ground work in addition to the strikes.

Just my $0.02.

🙂

Mario

[don]

Re: tasers

quote unstpabl1:

Great responses….and I appreciate them. Understand that I’m very supportive of Krav, but also am willing to look at the criticisms. I bring them up here from time to time, to air them out. Most critics talk to hear themselves talk, but others bring POV’s we may not have seen. such as the 1st knife vid I posted the other day.

Some “criticisms” may have some merit. Some “criticisms” are based upon ignorance or misunderstanding. IMO it’s good to introspect but I wouldn’t do it just because “haters” are talking smack…

I’m not saying a cop can’t strike or choke…Doesn’t LAPD/LASD have a ban on chokes? what I was asking is that that in civilian krav, you probably would’ve popped the drunk, instead of standup grappled to get complience being that its more of a combatives/striking system and why is krav a better choice for officers than a grappling based system like hapkido, jujitsu, etc. Wasn’t it a LAPD statistic that 90% of all their fights went to the ground…Of course no one bothered to ask why. Because we take it there to cuff and restrain the actor.

Neither LAPD nor LASD has “a ban on chokes”. Nor do we have a “ban” on using a “Carotid Restraint” (aka “Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint”).

Because of lawsuits and cameras, would the trooper been ok’d to pop the drunk to get complience as a preemptive? All these vids keep popping up, the citizenry in an outrage over excessive force because strikes were thrown. Its got to make a cop leery to act on his own behalf and that hesitancy to act seems dangerous to me

“Lawsuits and cameras” have absolutely NO BEARING on what is objectively reasonable for officers to do when it comes to using force. And no, the trooper would NOT have been “ok’d to POP” the drunk because the term “POP” has no standard definition when it comes to using force – you have to be specific. And, what he/she would have been Ok’d to do would be based upon the totality of the circumstances – especially what he/she was perceiving/believing.

Thanks

(AGAIN) Videos never tell the whole story. Uses of force rarely “look good”. “Good” force often LOOKS excessive because the vast majority of people watching are, like you, uneducated/ignorant in law enforcement use of force issues, policies, tactics, etc.

[chocolate-soldier]

Re: tasers

quote unstpabl1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jycsQe1F-sE

Excellent example of how tasers can help keep everyone safe IMO.

Who knew if the guy was going back to his truck to sulk, pull out a rifle or embark on a high-speed chase possibly leading to injury or death of himself and/or others.

[cjs-dad]

Re: tasers

quote Jeremy Stafford:

Rolling around on the ground with body armor and a Sam Browne is idiotic.

Offtopic Side Note: I just realized and found if humorous I’ve actually trained with Don wearing Jeremyís Sam Browne. Sorry I just found it funny.

[don]

Re: tasers

quote CJs Dad:

Offtopic Side Note: I just realized and found if humorous I’ve actually trained with Don wearing Jeremyís Sam Browne. Sorry I just found it funny.

I remember that, good times Sir! Thanks again for all your instructing and demoing. thumbsup

[cjs-dad]

Re: tasers

quote Don:

I remember that, good times Sir! Thanks again for all your instructing and demoing. thumbsup

Emphasis on ìtrained withî my friend. Jon P. Mike D. those are the real instructors I merely carry the gun bag and make the coffee.

[jeremy-stafford]

Re: tasers

What you don’t know is that prior to donning my Sam Browne, Sean was a 98 lb weakling that got sand kicked in his face. There’s magic in my gear… I had it blessed by Kevin Lewis.

[Author]

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