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Re: Vertical punches??
No one punch is always best, they’re just different ways to make contact. Except for the superman punch. Nothing says “I want to embarrass you more than hurt you” like a well-executed superman punch.
Re: Vertical punches??
I like the way John Whitman explains it in one of the videos on the KMA site. He says the “natural” angle is different for everyone. Close your eyes and stretch your arms out in front of you without making a fist. Open your eyes and that’s your angle. For me, it’s a little flatter than 45.
I don’t see the rotation as being slower. It just happens automatically with a relaxed (fast) punch where you clench the fist tight right before impact.
Re: Vertical punches??
I think the focus when instructors tell students to keep their fists vertical is less about the fist itself, and more an attempt to retrain the puncher to keep the elbows down, and the punch straight. If the students are focusing on punching with a vertical fist, then they’ll tend to flare their elbows less, as it’s hard to punch with a vertical fist this way. Then, after that has been embedded in their heads, it’s very easy for the instructors to simply say the angle doesn’t have to be absolutely vertical.
If you see a brand new level 1 student, that thinks they know how to punch, hitting a tombstone, you generally see their elbows flaring out, their punches coming around in an arc, and then they leave class with scuffed 3rd and 4th knuckles. So I think that the emphasis on striking with a ‘vertical fist’ is more to help those students punch with better structural alignment and technique.
Just what I’ve observed.
Re: Vertical punches??
I agree with MDeane here.
I’ve always taught vertical fist for a couple of reasons:
1) It’s a self correcting technique for beginners. As Deane said, it’s nigh on impossible to flare your elbows when you’re using a vertical punch.
2) It reinforces hitting with the top two knuckles, which break less easily and are more skeletally supported.
3) It’s easier to aim-just point with you middle knuckle. This avoids people twisting their fists at the last moment and hitting the chin with third and fourth knuckles by accident.
4) It’s faster to chain vertical fists than horizontal fists, which becomes important when you want to link up your strikes quickly and get a lot of leather in your attacker’s face to overwhelm them.
5) When you rotate your fist, you present a larger profile to the attacker as opposed to coming straight from your guard into the target without unnecessary arm motion. Michael Jai White (not that he’s an authority by any means) has a fantastic video with kimbo about this on youtube, for the curious…
6) Perhaps most importantly, this really cuts down on “arm punching,” where the bicep does most of the work and body rotation and bursting are minimized, creating an unnecessarily ineffective punch. When you let kids punch with a horizonal fist, they’ll concentrate on “rotating the punch for extra torque” (I call BS on that, btw) and end up flaring out their arm too early, sending the weapon on its own without the body behind it. When they punch with a vertical fist, they immediately get tight, roll their shoulders, exhibit better defensive posture, and rely more on body rotation and kinetic linkage to execute their punches. It’s a striking difference (pun intended).Kevin, I respect you and your material tremendously. This is just one datapoint: what I have found to be the case from my time training and teaching a whole lot of total beginners. Full disclosure, my instructor does and always has taught a “natural” John Whitman-style canted fist a la catapult’s explanation. I don’t present the vertical fist as “the definitive krav maga straight punch.” It’s just the way I teach my beginners to punch to ingrain good habits. Some of my higher level students tend to cant slightly as they become more comfortable with the straight punch as part of their combative arsenal. They hit hard, and I don’t mind it one bit. But the fundamentals are there.
Best,
-EliP.S.- Full disclosure, I’ve totally caniblized Steve’s coffee mug explanation. He may be a Dragon (god that’s kitschy), but it sure works great and also emphasizes punching THROUGH your target.
Re: Vertical punches??
IME, there is No punch orientation (fist/knuckle alignment) that magically cures “arm punching”. Unless corrected, arm punchers will arm punch no matter how they make contact with their hands/knuckles and I’ve seen arm punchers throw vertical punches too (e.g. you see that a lot in sloppy wing chun).
Re: Vertical punches??
I’m no instructor but it seems to me it’s all about the mechanics of how things hook together in your elbow. If you do a slo-mo punch with your arm and hand relaxed, your fist will start out nearly vertical and rotate more the more you extend your arm. Short punches will be almost vertical and long ones will rotate more.
I don’t know how to teach it but there’s no “rotating the punch for extra torque” as Eli mentioned. What worked for me was just concentrating on keeping the elbow down with good body rotation and keeping my arm relaxed until the last instant — letting the power come from speed rather than tensing up my arm trying to add power. Being a carpenter when I was younger helped. You can hit a nail a lot harder with a relaxed arm than with a tight one.
Re: Vertical punches??
A lot of boxing coaches teach boxers to rotate their fists to horizontal (and past) to add extra torque and snap to punches.
Re: Vertical punches??
quote Don:A lot of boxing coaches teach boxers to rotate their fists to horizontal (and past) to add extra torque and snap to punches.As a boxer myself, I can tell you it’s not a very good idea. You’ll most likely develop elbow problems.
Re: Vertical punches??
quote MURDR:As a boxer myself, I can tell you it’s not a very good idea. You’ll most likely develop elbow problems.I think so too. But then again, a lot of activities we participate in have potential to common injuries in them.
Jerry Seinfeld on helmets: (sorry if repeat)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgOUgrOHuFc
😀
Re: Vertical punches??
I have one major reason why I dont like teaching vertical punches in Krav Maga. I didnt think I could communicate why in writing so between classes today I shot a quick video explaining my reasons why. I will leave it up for a week or so and then I will delete it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gNm3-UF24ERe: Vertical punches??
Kevin, I totally agree that the movements taught in the straight punch are a basis for other, advanced moves later in the system. I don’t really see the ‘vertical fist’ being taught en masse to the entire class in my gym, it is generally done 1 on 1 with students needing help with their technique. Then, it’s not really how the technique is being taught, but is instead a learning tool to help keep the elbow down.
It’s along the same lines as holding onto your collar when throwing kicks to train you to keep your hands up. You aren’t going to hold your collar in a real situation, but doing it until it is natural to keep your hands up can help. IMO, it’s the same principle with the punching. The instructor gives the student that bite of instruction until they keep their elbows down consistently, and then graduates them to rotating their fists during the extension.I just see a lot of people throwing punches that not only have the elbows flaring out, but come around in a slight arc because of it. These are the ones where you see their partners being knocked from side to side while holding the pad, because the puncher isn’t hitting the center of the pad.
I love how you explain the importance of this one fundamental technique in krav. I know a lot of lower level students just think of it as a punch, but as you described, it is very principle guided, and affects other techniques down the line.
Re: Vertical punches??
In KM for Beginners, they suggest having students stand next to a wall while throwing the punch if they’re flaring their elbows. That seems like a more direct fix for the real problem than teaching them something they’ll just have to unlearn.
Re: Vertical punches??
quote catapult:In KM for Beginners, they suggest having students stand next to a wall while throwing the punch if they’re flaring their elbows. That seems like a more direct fix for the real problem than teaching them something they’ll just have to unlearn.Who says anyone will have to “unlearn” anything? There’s enough variation in response on this thread, by highly qualified people, that it should be clear that both the vertical and canted fist have advantages and disadvantages. Standing next to a wall only works one side at a time, and IMHO limits body motion in a way that may discourage torso rotation. Seems like a good teaching tool but not a sustainable solution. As far as kids transitioning to canted hands, that happens naturally as they become more comfortable with speed, power, and ACCURACY in striking. All that remains is good form and tucked elbows.
Kevin: Good video. I tried to post a response, but youtube was being dumb. In short, I don’t buy into the similar rotation aspect as a viable reason for teaching to punch EXPLICITLY with rotation. I wholeheartedly agree that limiting the vocabulary of gross motions is an admirable goal, and central tenet of Krav, but here is enough separation between combatives and the grappling action of grabbing a gun, etc. that I think any slight potential benefit is outweighed by a LOT of detractions for the technique. The addition of torque with a twist is highly debunked in RBSD circles, and is only taught in combat sports because it presents a larger surface area of glove to the opponent, increasing your chance of hitting him. But when you need to hit with JUST the top two knuckles, this approach goes out the window. :Deadhorse:
That’s just the way I see it. No disrespect intended, and I appreciate the dialogue.
-Eli
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