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Normally I don’t get into these types of discussions because someone always poo-poo’s somebody elses SD or MA. However I will say this, Moni Aizik has never put in print or claimed in any forum I’m aware of, that he alone developed KM. He did get asked after the Yom Kippur Battle to bring some of his tactics to the Military. He and Imi developed a style to teach the IDF and he has continued to develope what he thinks is pertinent to todays problems in the streets of this and many other countries, just like the KM practitioners have(of which I am one). 🙂
And, I will also state that not once have I heard or been told that he poo-pooed someone elses style compared to his. Now I don’t mind people believing that the style they chose and are training in, is the best one for them. But thats just it, it is what they believe is BEST FOR THEM! Whether the name is KM CKM TKD KF or friggin’ chop suey do. So my point is be proud of your style, noone should give anyone grief for that. But to draw down on anothers style (Combat Survival Commando Krav Maga) is the same thing that your bitchin’ about in this thread. It could be that Commando KM was named as such to keep from overlapping KMAA, IKMA or any of the other styles discussed here, with no politics intended or wanted. That seems to be a huge problem in the industry, to much criticism of someone elses style. This is respectfully and Humbley my opinion on the subject. I really believe that KM would go further without all the politicing. 😉Re:
[JL] \”And, I will also state that not once have I heard or been told that he poo-pooed someone elses style compared to his.\”
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ìTo express my view on any system or martial art that I never train in is not professional!î-Aizik, M. (2006, June 14). Systema. Message posted to http://www.combatsurvival.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=72
I’m probably going to regret this, but here I go:
No one on our side of the debate has ever said a bad word about Moni Aizik’s system. Not a single word.
Our argument is that Imi charged Darren as one of the people to protect the name. Specifically, to protect the name in North America. We have spent 20+ years building that name, protecting it, making it well-known and respected, while sticking to the principals Imi taught. It is simply unacceptable that someone else will come along twenty years later and use our name to sell their totally unrelated stuff. If he believes his stuff is Krav Maga, he should have called it that for the last twenty years. We were doing it twenty years ago even though no one could pronounce it or describe it.
What bothers me about Moni is that he very subtly makes Imi, the actual founder of the system, look bad by claiming how modest he (Moni) is and was and that’s why we never heard of him, and then Imi took all the credit for developing the system. So Imi ends up looking like the bad guy, who somehow cheated him out of the credit he was due.
I haven’t studied Moni’s system, it may be good overall, but the techniques I have seen in articles and on his website are completely different from KM techniques, even going against KM principles (he often ends up on the ground in some type of control hold, when in KM we are taught not to go there). Also, many of the techniques I’ve seen have few or sometimes no counterattacks, when in KM we are taught to go for an immediate, or almost immediate, counter and combatives are a big part of the technique. Moni seems to concentrate more on joint manipulation and control holds.
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GiantkillerJohn
You just proved my point. Why should anyone debate anything. He has his you have yours. But to say that Moni wasn’t around twenty yrs. ago when KMAA was established in America. He was there before during and after KMAA. The only difference is the view on techniques applied in the cirriculum of each respective SD. I don’t see the title being promoted as \”CKM the way IMI wanted it.\” I see it as any other MA or SD differential, TKD vs. Kung Fu or Karate vs. Judo, they all have relavance in there own right for what they believe is best for that style nothing more nothing less. So why is it that the KM culture can’t get passed that? It seems to me that the concentration of making each and every school a little bit better, and the bringing together of different techniques and updating what works versus what may not in the streets is the duty of ALL SD or MA styles.I should ask this in a different thread but, how many people in this forum believe a street fight usually doesn’t go to the ground? My position is that if it does I want to be able to defend then get back to my feet as quickly as possible with as much damage to the attacker as possible in the least amount of time possible.
I believe in the KM system, but I don’t believe we have the right to look down on anyone elses style as less then our own. Different strokes for different folks.
I don’t think anyone here is looking down on Moni’s style. But he is the one who only recently changed the name of his style from \”Combat Survival\” to \”Commando Krav Maga\”. Then, in articles written about him, he cites Imi by name and refers to him and the specific system he developed for the army and then claims that he worked with him in the seventies to create a civilian version and that he is thus the \”co-founder\” of the KM we know today. However, Imi wrote a book with Eyal Yanilov in the 80’s that was later translated by Darren Levine into English and nowhere is Moni mentioned and the techniques and principles seem to differ from what Moni is teaching today.
We didn’t start comparing his style to ours, he started it by claiming he invented our system.
If he wants to teach a system loosely based on Krav Maga, why doesn’t he do what Mike Lee Kanarek of the \”Fight\” system has done and simply give it a different name? As a matter of fact, he did have a different name for it until just two or three years ago when he suddenly started claiming to have invented Krav Maga.
As for going to the ground, of course it can happen and we train for it, but we avoid going there whenever possible. However it looks like, from the sample techniques I have seen, that Moni often goes to the ground intentionally. For example, there was one gun technique where the gun just went flying out of the attacker’s hand and landed somewhere on the floor and the attacker was taken down and ended up on the ground in a type of police hold. This could work for police officers, since they usually carry handcuffs and their own weapons, but for a civilian this may not be a good idea, he has no control of the gun and he hasn’t countered with any punches. As soon as he lets go of the guy, the run for the gun will be on and who knows who will win.
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GiantkillerGK
I respect your thoughts but I think you need to ask Moni via e-mail if he believes he co-founded todays KM. If you did he would say no, he would also say that he was ASKED by IMI and the IDF to come up with a program for use in the military to begin with and that evolved into the civilian sector later and was called Combat Survival CKM.
Regardless of any of that, my point is that if he is teaching others how to survive an attack, he’s trying to save others and that in and of itself should be commended. No different than Darren or John. They are all trying to save lives, I guess therein lies the common thread. I for one will give them all the respect they so well deserve. I don’t care what they call it, as long as it combats todays assaults on our public. Again, IMHO.JL,
I agree with all that you’ve said, right up to the end. We differ simply because of perspective. We as a group and some of us individually (including Darren, me, and several others) have sacrified for years to build the name of KM. We built it when no one else cared about it, and when people told us we should change the name because no one had heard of it. We kept with it during years when the political winds shifted against Israel. We did it when it would have been far easier to change names to avoid all the political crap we’ve gone through. We spent huge emotional effort and money to protect it. So while you may not care what people call it, we do.John
I meant know disrespect! I simply meant that for the sake of saving a life, any teachings are noble.
I do recognize however the sacrifices you and Darren and many others went through to keep KM here and have made it the strong brand it is today.
If I offended, my very humble apologies. JL??
I didn’t take offense. I didn’t intend that tone, and if it came across that way, then I should be more careful.I don’t mind having a healthy disagreement. There are people who believe sincerely that all the names of martial arts, including KM, should be open and available to all. I recognize that they feel that way, even though I strongly disagree with them, especially in the case of KM, which was granted to us in the U.S. by the founder. If you fall on the other side of that fence, then OK. I’m comfortable disagreeing and arguing my side.
I do take offense at people who hide behind grandiose causes and claims that they are simply fighting for everyone’s rights. Most of the time they are hypocrites doing it for their own benefit. But if someone has a sincere difference of perspective…well, that’s what makes the world go ’round.
John
I appreciate your perspective on this subject. I too get offended with the hypocrites of the SD world that seem to suck the blood right out of the vary cause they claim to be protecting. I don’t know that we disagree comepletely on this subject, but you did bring to light some things I hadn’t thought about. For that I thank you!
In Krav we trust…..JLRe:
[Giantkiller]
\”If he wants to teach a system loosely based on Krav Maga…\”
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ìHaganah derives out of four different systems: two Israeli martial arts, Krav Maga and Hisardut and two IDF military systems, KAPAP and LOTAR.î-Kanarek, M.L. (2006). Mikeís introduction. On F.I.G.H.T. Principles and combatives [DVD]. Weston, FL: Integrated Defensive Fighting Systems
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[Giantkiller]
\”However it looks like, from the sample techniques I have seen, that Moni often goes to the ground intentionally.\”
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ìWhat Iím going to show you is a maneuver that you going to basically go with the person down. We donít like to do it a lot, but sometimes – in this particular situation – you have to go down using the ground to your advantage because youíre going on top of him.î-Aizik, M. (?). Intermediate strangle escapes. On Combat survival commando-krav-maga volume 2 [DVD]. Toronto: Combat Survival
JL,
No disrespect here either, but he used to advertise being the \”co-founder of Krav Maga\”. That was on his ads in BB and other magazines for months (but not anymore, I’m assuming this happened for legal reasons).
There are also several articles written about him in which he clearly talks about meeting Imi and then developing the KM system with him.
If he developed something separate instead, called \”Combat Survival\”, fine, but why did he suddenly change the name to \”Commando Krav Maga\”?
If he can teach civilians good self-defense that’s great, but if he truly believes in his techniques, why wouldn’t he proudly call them by his own name instead of making it appear as though they are something else?
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GiantkillerWith regard to Moni,
I think that some of you are misunderstanding this thing. Moni has not been responsible for Krav Maga’s growth in the U.S.. Not at all. That has been a direct result of Mr. Levine, Marni, John, Michael, and every other certified KM instructor and school owner.
This argument boils down to one issue, Branding! John was making the point that since KRAV MAGA is now a Brand name others are trying to capitalize on the effort of others. You need not be genius to figure this out. This is in no way a an indictment of Moni’s ability as a proffesor. This is business and clearly you can’t allow others to capitalize on a brand that they did not create.
The argument about style vs style will never go away. This is argument is thousands of years old and it is highly unlikely that it will ever change. A student of ours attended a grappling seminar for Law Enforcement that was being taught by a highly respected MMA, BJJ institution. Upon hearing that Krav Maga teaches students to take weapons from armed assailants, he barked \” that is irresponsible, you should never do that, comply and give them whatever they want\”. I had a good laugh. Of course people will attack what they don’t know. That is the classic expression of ignorance. It does not bother me at all.
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