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I just finished reading the morning paper. And in the Good Living section on health and fitness there was an article on the benefits of boxing training as a cardio/fitness routine.
This is one paragraph quoted: \”Boxing type exercise classes are increasingly popular. Options abound, including Muay Thai (the boxing and kickboxing sport from Thailand); the martial arts (kung fu, karate, aikido, judo, tae kwon do, etc) Krav Maga (Israeli self defense and survival training); and cardio-kickboxing.\”
The article went on to explain the benefits from this type of workout.
\”Krav Maga (Israeli self defense and survival training)\”
I like how Krav is seperated from \”The Martial Arts\”…. I always figured there was something \”different\” about us….. 😉
Also, survival training, am I missing something here? Should I also be learning how to build shelters and find my way out of the woods with nothing more then a spoon and a left over chicken bone?
Only if you’re live in the woods and have nothing more than a spoon and a chicken bone! 😉 Otherwise you’re good to go.
GK,
Think you’re worried too much; while the advertising is around, even in LA the out of the four people who noticed my hands were slightly banged up around the office, two had no clue, one had heard something, and the only one who recognized it lives not two miles from the national training center.
Cardio marketing vs. whatever, looking at the people in the cardio classes, many of them are training in the L3 and above classes too… any workout becomes repetitive over time so variety in the training is never a bad thing. Initial KM for 90% of the population who comes in will produce undeniable physiological benefits within two weeks, its not wrong to advertise that fact.
As with any program there are people who don’t stick with it, and those that do. You’ve assuredly been in it longer than I, but given the rotation of people through the L1 classes (its extremely rare to see the same people at them on a regular basis), vs seeing the same people in the L2 classes and above week in and week out, I think the self-selection process works just fine regardless of how anything is branded… and the ones I do see in repeat L1 classes are those that are going hard during the drills, which are definitely the people I at least hope stick around for longer.
As with anything not illegal (general comment to PB or anyone else), do what works for you and don’t worry about what others think about it. If KM fits with what you’re looking for, then party on, regardless what marketing brought other people in, or what others may think of KM if it gets mentioned.
Beach
The thing is though, what I’m trying to do is see the big picture. Yes, on the surface it would appear as though it wouldn’t make a difference as to why a person comes in to train as long as he comes in at all. I think that was the original intention. Get them with cardio, then convert them into KM practitioners.
I think though, from my own observations over nine years, this strategy is at best partially successful and it may have even been turned on its head. Instead of converting cardio people into KM lovers, we are getting so many cardio people (because of the advertising), we are starting to adapt the classes to their needs (provide a good workout rather than focusing on teaching the techniques). So, there will be more cardio oriented exercises in the regular classes in addition to all of the pure cardio classes (and fighting classes, which also provide a good workout, if that’s what you are after).
So, overall, less KM may be taught, the classes become less distinct (very similar punch combinations whether its LV 1 or 5), less emphasis on the fine points of a technique etc. This may drive people, who actually want to learn KM and are less interested in the cardio aspect away. Which will lead to even less true KM practitioners and even more cardio people. Then the leaders at the schools think that students seem to be content just having a \”good workout\” and provide even more of it, assuming that’s what the students want. So, over time, instead of converting cardio people into KM practitioners, we are converting KM (or at least its instruction) into a more workout oriented system.
As a result of this, there are less people proficient at the techniques (just the other day I was workling with a girl in LV3, who didn’t know choke with a pull/push and she is there often, another time I was working with two people in LV4, who had never seen gun to the side of the head to the live side and those people take several classes a week). Less proficiency and also less distinction between class levels means less people interested in taking belt tests (apparently only one person signed up for the blue belt test this weekend).
So it’s all correlated, personally I can clearly see it, but usually people get mad when I point it out, although I don’t mean it in a bad way, it’s just an observation.
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GiantkillerGK,
Interesting points, and I’ll defer most of it until I have more experience with this center to make any judgement. I only have observed the beginning and endings of the higher class work, so I can’t address the differences or lack thereof. Realistically anyone who’s chasing KM just for a workout is utterly missing the point: there are dozens of easier and cheaper ways to get a better workout if that’s one’s goal than any martial art, and at least the early self-defense training doesn’t focus on key areas to be really considered tailored for conditioning purposes.
Strange only one person is signed up, many of the higher level students were discussing it tonight out in the waiting area. Wouldn’t surprise me though to find people from the Sherman Oaks, LB, and HB facilities at the exam, or even further away. At least 5 years ago there simply weren’t that many places that even had the staff to be able to offer a blue belt test.
I’ll add a somewhat different viewpoint to the one you espoused: one of the downsides of training in the NTC is the larger class sizes, at least in the initial L1, and the L2 classes look rather full as well (as an aside, this is not completely a bad thing, a variety of training partners helps a lot). The negative part is that some instructors have more new people in every class, and they focus on getting the basic strikes and kicks correct, 60 second drills become 2, 3, or even 4 minute ones, and it doesn’t leave much time at the end of the class for as many choke defenses or other less common material.
It’s also not entirely the instruction and class size’s fault (likely not even close): while I’m certain there are multiple tactics to it, my very first class this go around included a choke with a push from the front defense. Incidentally that wasn’t in the L1 curriculum I completed 5ish years ago up in Boston.
Also there are people who graduate from top 50 engineering colleges who flat out flunk the EIT exam, miserably I might add, after 4.5 years of coursework… it’s not the majority though. Not everyone is going to get every single technique; rather than focusing on individual folks (to be fair, I do too I just simply have more options for training partners in any individual class ;)), it’d be better off looking the whole of your training compatriots… if a majority of them are clearly missing techniques then it may be a problem in the system, if its a sporadic distribution, its probably the individuals. Of course it could be a problem with America as a whole these days… darn Gen Y! 🙁 (no offense to anyone here is intended with my generalization)
I’ll see over time, I’m more for the technique and am something of a perfectionist… may have a different opinion after the near year worth of training I know I’ll be able to get to. Certainly hope it’s not as you described.
Beach
At the risk of sounding like \”Master Po\”, I think that the whole cardio vs. defense techniques within KM is best approched as a yin-yang concept. They must be balanced, to much of one and not enough of the other is a bad thing.
Done right the fitness classes tie into the self defense (SD) classes and allow you a chance to develop muscles and movements that you need in the SD classes.
At the school I go to here in the Kansas City area, I think they are balanced and complement each other very well.
Giantkiller complains about the conditioning thing several times a year. We follow a format that we’ve followed for years. It hasn’t changed, and it works well.
Didn’t mean to complain, I was merely telling about some observations I have made, in response to Beach addressing me personally.
Beach,
You are saying: \”I’ll add a somewhat different viewpoint to the one you espoused\”, but this is actually in line with what I was saying. The combatives are usually done first, therefore it can often happen that one runs out of time for the actual defenses.
About students not knowing their techniques, I remember it being different. You wouldn’t find people in LV3, who don’t know their choke defenses. And the incident I mentioned wasn’t the only time this happened. I remember another time (after everyone but one person failed the green belt test) we worked on chokes and LV1 defenses in LV3 and a number of people had difficulties with it, then sort of remembered it after it had been demonstrated a couple of times. And many of those people are there all the time, so it couldn’t really be their fault if they don’t know these techniques.
I’ve been there for nine years, yet I also feel rusty with a lot of exercises if I haven’t worked on them in weeks (or months).
I guess many teachers may not be able to see the problem or the changes that I’m alluding to, because they don’t rely on regular classes for their own training. If they did, maybe they would better see what I mean.
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GiantkillerRe:
[Giantkiller]
\”I’ve been there for nine years, yet I also feel rusty with a lot of exercises if I haven’t worked on them in weeks (or months).I guess many teachers may not be able to see the problem or the changes that I’m alluding to, because they don’t rely on regular classes for their own training.\”
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One of the Laws of Learning I mentioned in another thread was Disuse. This law assumes that habits and memories used repeatedly are strengthened and habits not used are weakened through disuse. That being said, if an individual feels rusty with some exercises, IMHO its up to that individual to go the extra yard (outside of classes) and practice those exercises by himself/herself or with a training partner. What does it take to say to someone, \”Hey, I haven’t worked on this for a while. Will you workout with me?\”To add to what Greenbeanie said. When we are in class there is instruction on combatives defenses etc. At the end of EVERY class our instructor gives us any announcements and then we’re told, \” We worked on a lot today, please work on these technique on your own at home to help make the techniques second nature.\”
I work on KM and another form of SD as well. And I take what I believe is relevant to me, for that particular session, that I need or want to work on, to become highly proficient at those particular techniques that may be giving me problems. So I also believe that if one wants to become proficient at anything, it takes more than classtime to achieve this. We already do things the general populace does not. Take it a little further in your training and the rust will discipate quickly. I promise! 😉
As an aside, there are always students looking to do some extra work after the class, so no excuses, just results. 8)
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[JL]
\”At the end of EVERY class our instructor gives us any announcements and then we’re told, \” We worked on a lot today, please work on these technique on your own at home to help make the techniques second nature.\”
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To repeat what I posted in another thread: The Learning Law of Exercise stresses the idea that the more an act is practiced, the faster and surer the learning becomes. Repetition is basic to developing adequate responses because no one ever becomes proficient at a skill without performing the operation over and over. The amount of repetition required varies from person to person. Learning is always based on activity, which requires some kind of exercise involving both mind and body.The Learning Law of Recency is called into play here as well.
\”Repetition is basic to developing adequate responses because no one ever becomes proficient at a skill without performing the operation over and over.\”
Sensi says: DO IT AGAIN! 😆
Okay, so we are agreeing on the repetitions. A few dozen exercises requiring thousands of repetitions each to truly get proficient, then many more on a continued basis to stay proficient and not get \”rusty\”.
Of course, it helps to work on your own, i do sometimes at the center after class, but at home there are usually so many other things going on that you rarely get around to it, which is precisely why you go to a school, to work on it there. Also, you’d need to hook up with a partner which may not be always possible. And then I’m thinking, darn, why do I have to go through all of these compiications to learn KM, when the cardio people can practically show up at any time and get to do their (often unrelated) exercises?
I think a 50/50 spread could be ideal. So, let’s say you are taking two fighting classes, if the other two could be pure KM, one would be able to get the best of both worlds and learn the exercises, while also improving conditioning. If you work on one – or several related – exercises for an hour, or close to it, you learn so much more than if you’ve just got 10-15 minutes.
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Giantkiller
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