@captainobvious
Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Re:
quote \”KravRon\:Royce Gracie has also been doing BJJ his entire life….and I do mean his entire life from when he was a weee lad. Captain We all understand BJJ is a great art….but it is not will never be and can never be the end all be all to martial arts. We can sit here and point counter point all day, the point is BJJ has its uses, just like every other martial art. But your not selling me on how great it is.I could have joined this topic and said \”well, you know the only true rape defense is a firearm\” but I didnt, even though thats what I believe. The original poster of this topic asked about specific classes and you had to hi-jack the topic so you could spout BJJ’s greatness. I will no longer point-counterpoint you because obviously you know all the answers and according to your answerbook nothing can beat BJJ.
First off, dont get your panties in a bunch- there has to be a thread to hijack in the first place, and I was the first one to post a reply. The poster asked about rape defense, and I advised BJJ. Krav Maga is a combination of martial arts whether you like it or not. Krav teaches boxing- so if I go to a boxing gym along with training krav, does that mean Im not a krav fighter anymore? In case it skipped your mind, Krav also teaches basic BJJ techniques.
Beyond that, I dont have to sell you on how great it is- if you havent noticed its effectiveness in the past 10 years, then you’re never going to accept it.
At no point did I disrespect Krav- I posted an opinion based on a simple fact- a rape is going to occur on the ground or in the range of grappling. Open your goddamn mind a little bit and stop running with the \”if its a sport then its not real fighting\” crowd.
It should be noted that the UFC is a level playing field which attempts to favor no particular style of grappling. As was said, its a good example for examples, in that we know who the fighters are and what their specialties are beforehand, and the fact that it is caught on videotape.
Beyond that, as far as Tank Abbott not being a physical specimen or being a wrestler or muay thai fighter, thats not entirely true. Tank did have good exposure to wrestling (served as a sparring partner for Tito Ortiz on a few occasions) and knew enough to take people down to the ground. He also knew how to punch, not to mention the fact that he could benchpress 500lbs (literally). So, while he may not have had a chiseled physique, there was some powerfull muscles underneath that beer belly.
Re:
quote \”Giantkiller\:Hey Captain!So, what happened with Akebono vs Royce Gracie? The link doesn’t work for me. Was the guy a lot bigger and Royce submitted him? Did the big guy have experience or was he just big? Just curious…..
Try going direct to the page- http://www.roycegracie.tv and scroll all the way to the bottom- thats the link I posted for the fight.
Basically, Royce fought Akebono who’s a reknown Sumo champion and K-1 fighter in Japan. Royce at the time weighed in at about 180lbs whereas Akebono stood 6’8 and weighed in at 485 lbs. Without so much as taking a single strike while in the guard, Royce submitted Akebono in 2:37 with an omoplata shoulder lock.
Re:
quote \”CLFMak\:This is off the topic, but its been slowly moving away anyway, and its becoming a BJJ strength vs skill discussion- in the old UFC days, there was a sumo wrestler who weighed like 618, and he was beaten by Keith Hackney. Do you think that Royce Gracie could have beaten him using BJJ? I mean, in the guard, he could smother you (and you probably couldn’t get your legs around him), and in the mount he could probably knock you off easilly. Other positions have similar problems.This was always a question brought up about UFC 3. Fortunately for us, there was an answer, although it didnt come until about 15 years later
http://www.roycegracie.tv/AkebonoVsRoyce.wmv
quote \”Piton\:I couldn’t disagree more about using the guard position in a rape situation. The guard position in a controlled grappling event on a mat is great. Even so it should be a transitional move to a reversal or an escape. Look how it’s misused in the UFC. Fighters will get into the guard and stay there allowing themselves to be pounded.For one, just because specific fighters dont know how to use the guard does not take away the legitimacy of it. Many fighters in UFC and MMA competitions that you see getting pounded from inside the guard are inexperienced on the ground, but they know one important thing- the guard is the safest place to be if you’re on your back. Take the example of Patrick Cote vs Tito Ortiz. Tito had him on the ground the entire match, yet a striker was able to survive the fight simply because he could hold his opponent close enough to prevent serious damage. You’re also not taking into account the level of training that the other fighters have. Many of them, such as Tito, are actually quite adept grapplers.
How you use the guard is entirely on you- you have your options to submit, reverse position, sweep, or regain your feet. Just because you dont want to be on your back or the ground in general doesnt mean that its not going to happen- no rape victim ever wanted to be raped. What else would you have someone do should they get thrown down to the ground? If you say bite, scratch, kick, get back up, thats fine, but which position would be best to do this from?
quote \”Piton\:In a street situation the attacker will get angry when put into the guard and begin to pound the victoms head into the pavement. If the attacker has a knife they’ll use that too.Its not quite that simple- \”just pound the guys head in.\” The guard still works when people are throwing punches. Whether the attacker has a knife or not, it poses a risk whether on the ground or standing up.
quote \”Piton\:Any rape self defense should have direct and viscious attacks. For example gouging out the eyes, ripping out hair, kicking, slapping, and crushing the testicles. And best of all biting. Get your teeth around any primary nerve area and bite clean through. That’s right clean through, especially the obvious one.And theres nothing wrong with that- you dont seriously think that the Gracie Rape Prevention tapes advice that you pull guard, bite your time, and wait for a submission do you?
Re:
quote \”KravRon\:One last quote for you from the movie \”enough\”\”What do you do after your done attacking?\” – Trainer
\”Nothing\” – J-Lo
\”Why?\” – Trainer
\”Because I never stop attacking\” – J-LoWhat do you do when you’re exhausted after 30 seconds?
Re:
quote \”KravRon\:\”The Gracies have an entire lineup of videos designed for a woman fighting a man on the ground- look into this matter before making these statements. \”These videos are about applying existing BJJ techniques to a rape scenario….not specifically designed new techniques for women. Im so happy your such a BJJ Fanboy but being on the ground on her back is not a place a woman wants to be in a rape scenario.
Do you think a woman is going to pull guard or attempt a takedown? Natrually she doesnt want to be on the ground during a rape situation, but you’re still missing the point- people say the same thing about fighting in the street (\”you dont want to go to the ground). The problem is that there is a big difference between what you WANT to do and what circumstances FORCE you to do. Should she find herself on the ground, she’ll be more prepared than anyone else. Seriously, most of it is giving a shot to the face, foot on the hip to create space, and then get up and get the hell out of there.
quote \”KravRon\:\”Recognizing situations is all part of the self defense aspect of BJJ. I find the idea of people \”teaching\” others how to bite or scratch a bit ludicrous.\”I want to know which school you attend because every BJJ school I know of starts out on the ground and ends on the ground. There is no \”self defense\” aspect. There is no awareness. Teaching others how to bite and scratch may seem \”ludacris\” to you. But for a woman, biting and scratching the right places can mean the difference between being raped and not.
My instructor is certified under Royce and Relson Gracie. There really is no difference between Gracie Jiu Jitsu and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, with the exception that most of the Gracie schools have heavy emphasis on self defense applications. In the old days at the Gracie Academy, you werent even allowed to step on the mat for a class until you knew all of the self defense escapes.
quote \”KravRon\:The point of a rape escape or fight like a woman class is the same point as Krav. Teach a woman to prevent a rape in a rapid amount of time with minimal experience.Thats just it though- theres no such thing as an overnight self defense course. Practice makes perfect, theres no two ways about it, and the more one practices their techniques, the higher the likelyhood of them succeeding in such a situation.
Re:
quote \”KravRon\:I prefer the ease of Krav ground tactics over the complicated movements that were taught in that course.Im curious as to what simple tactics from Krav you’re talking about- BJJ practically has every way you could possibly move on the ground from the most simple to the most complex. Elbow escaping is probably the simplest and most crucial skill to learn. If there were complicated moves taught, thats the fault of the instructors for choosing them, since there are very simple methods and principles for groundfighting.
quote \”KravRon\:In a rape scenario however your usually talking a physically weaker and smaller opponent vs a larger stronger opponent. BJJ trains similar weight classes because even though it was founded as a self defense style, it has been morphed into a Sport here in the states and is taught as such.BJJ was created so that a smaller opponent could overcome a larger one. You’re forgetting one more thing as well- BJJ seperates by weight AND skill levels. The only reason for this is to make a level playing field (i.e. determine who’s the more skilled) and thats the sporting aspect of it. Have you never seen a UFC? Royce Gracie fought opponents who constantly outweighed him, including a then 50lbs heavier Ken Shamrock and 80lb heavier Dan Severn. Yet another feat was Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira who defeated Bob Sapp- Sapp had a near 170 lbs weight advantage (no, thats not a typo) , yet still lost the fight to an armbar. Helio Gracie was a mere 135lbs- everyone he fought was heavier than he was- the whole system was developed to fight people who are bigger and stronger than you are, hence the heavy advancement of the guard position by the Gracies.
quote \”KravRon\:The advantage of a \”rape prevention\” course is that it is specifically designed for women to use the weapons they have to fight off an attacker. For example: simulated compliance in order to free trapped arms/hands, scratching biting, and the big one REGOCNIZING A POTENTIAL RAPE SITUATION. I guarantee you NONE of these are covered in BJJ.Recognizing situations is all part of the self defense aspect of BJJ. I find the idea of people \”teaching\” others how to bite or scratch a bit ludicrous.
quote \”KravRon\:Most other martial arts, including Krav and BJJ, have ways for women to deal with that scenario, and will most often work, but are not specifically designed for woman vs man on ground.The Gracies have an entire lineup of videos designed for a woman fighting a man on the ground- look into this matter before making these statements.
quote \”KravRon\:Its the simple difference of: Hmm…should I go for the push off roll over to the armbar or scratch to the eyes, strike to the throat, buck rollover, forearm strike, elbow strikes, kick to the groin and run away.An armbar seems to be the more efficient method- an attacker with a broken arm isnt going to do much, especially with that arm. Scratching the eyes? God forbid he closes or protects them. Striking the throat is no more difficult than punching the jaw- its not enough to just hit it, you’ve got to hit it hard enough. Elbow strikes are always a beauty. Groin strikes arent very reliable in my opinion- every male in our species knows from the first couple years of his life that getting hit in the balls hurts- let alone the fact that he isnt going to attack you bowllegged waiting for a solid kick.
quote \”KravRon\:I dont know about you, but of the few women who tried to put me in an armbar or submission hold I was able to power my way out strength vs leverage. 6′ 220lbs is alot for a woman to overcome,Absolutely- 220lbs is a lot for anyone to overcome. Thats why moves require practice. Theres no easy way about fighting- its a developed skill like any other. Even the techniques that Krav teaches requires practice. The more you do, the better you get- nothing will make you better overnight.
But turn this very statement around- what do you think
\”\”I disagree. BJJ is good if your a man fighting from the ground.\”\”
Why not a woman?
\”\”Problem you run into in Rape scenario’s that BJJ doesnt train for is multiple attackers. \”\”
Because training to fight multiple attackers is highly suspect, and is a typical response by many instructors/martial artists who want to credit their martial art, but cant prove it. There are enough variables in a one on one fight to study them for your entire life. There are entirely too many to study for more than 1 on 1 fighting.
Aside from that, its often said that going to the ground in a multiples scenario is suicide. This is for the most part correct, although there have been many instances people have gone to the guard and used someone else as a human shield. If this is the case, who’s more qualified to stop takedowns and stay on their feet? A striker who never practices takedowns, or a grappler who trains in them every day? Should the possibility arise that you end up on the ground, who’s going to be more likely to defend themselves or manage to scramble and get back to their feet?
\”It sounds like the author of the original post is looking for a specific class that deals with real life rape scenario’s, something BJJ doesnt deal with.\”
Wow, you’ve clearly never seen anything from Rapesafe. For all the talk about \”BJJ is for sport\” you do realize that there was a long period of time where it WASNT a sport, but a very reliable (and very effective) fighting style that was used (and is STILL used) very often on the streets of Brazil.
I mean seriously man- where do you think a rape is going to occur? Certainly not on the feet, but rather on the ground.
For the badmouthing you’ve given BJJ, Im also curious to the extent you’ve trained in it.
Call me bias, but I dont think you’re going to find a better rape prevention program than whats found in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
Why? Well because the guard position (and ground positions period) is probably the most common one you’ll find yourself in, and that position is what BJJ is known for.
The Gracies developed the self defense aspect of BJJ alot, so I’d suggest either finding one (if they’re in your area) or checking the academy for videos at the least.
I would say it depends on the age/size of the individual you’re talking about.
A child will not be able to defend themselves against a grown man.
A 21 year old with a small frame possibly could.
There have been instances when women have beat up their own attackers, though its generally uncommon (a much greater number of people DONT train some type MA than those that do).
And regardless what you know- size and strength DO matter- ALOT. Thats why there are weight divisions in virtually any/every type of fighting/sporting event. Fortunately when people are victims of attack, you dont need to defeat your attacker in terms of say, a boxing match. Most often attackers try to pick the easiest peron to attack (i.e. someone who wont fight back). The simple act of fighting back by itself deters many attackers.
Re:
quote \”The Kravist\:My friend apologized to me afterwards for not doing anything and he admitted he didn’t know what to do. Anecdotal? Sure, but I this type of thing is common with \”trained martial artists.\” They just don’t train for reality.Reality? You’ve grossly underestimated these \”trained martial artists\” because of a single incident with a single guy. Take multiple instances, gather actual stats, and then make your conclusion.
Its very possible, but how many people are going to fight you like frankenstein with locked knees? Hit the knee, the leg, whatever you come in contact with- its a good area to strike.
I wouldnt bother with blauer if you’re trying to be serious…..
I’d take up lex’s advice
Muay Thai and simple boxing are very good for crosstraining and have proven very effective.
Im not a big fan of elbows in the thighs, but in all honosty, I dont think opening someone’s guard in a fight is all that difficult. For one, how many people are you fighting that are BJJ or even know what a guard is?
If they’ve got a closed guard, opening it up in grappling is one thing, but a few shots to the face will open that up nice and quick in a fight (unless he wants to hold on and get pounded).
