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[/quote]anyone can strike the groin/throat but do they have the drive to do so? if you asked a woman to insert her finger and gouge an eye out could she? would you?

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Once again we come to the notion that women are mentally incapable of hurting someone who is hell bent on hurting them. A gross underestimation IMO. How come it is less malicious to take a persons arm and with intent and force break it while he is screaming in pain?

To think that we shouldn’t teach attacks to the eyes or throat simply because \”well they can’t bring themselves to do it anyway\” is totally the wrong way to approach the problem. What is needed is training methods that enable even more timid individuals to be able to do things like that when under attack.

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To assume that women are mentally so \”weak\” that they cannot do everything possible to escape rape IMO is grossly underestimating the \”weaker\” sex.
When a date rape is about the occur should the girl just \”fight nice?\”
Should she just slap on an armbar and tell the guy to \”tap out and behave?\”
😯
Yes she might know the perpetrator. Mostly however the assailant is someone that the girl met a few hours ago in a bar. Yes she liked him. But I’m pretty damn sure that she isn’t that much emotionally attached to him that she can’t do everything in her power to escape the situation.
I firmly trust in the abilities of the women who train at my school. If I were to teach them BJJ stuff for potential rape situations because \”you can’t really bring yourselves to hurt the assailant you know?\” the long time female students would probably laugh at me.
Wrestling and BJJ and all that stuff is great for giving you the basic tools and teaching you how to grapple with someone. But to honestly think that women should try strategies like that in rape situations instead of going to vital targets and trying to escape is ludicrous and dangerous.

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maybe tell him to stop right away, in a firm voice, get up if he tries to continue anyway, maybe tell him to leave… If he still comes after her and she is unable to get away and he overpowers her, then you are right, maybe she should try to comply for a brief moment, so she can get those counter attacks in. And I think hits to the eyes and throat can be very effective

See? We are in agreement because that was exactly what I was referring to.
Thank you. 😀

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GK I’m sorry but I still think your logic is flawed.
You mean a girl can’t do eye gouge or throat strike because the guy WAS nice to her (and now he is trying to rape her…) but she can definitely do a groin kick. How?

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if he is already on top of her, holding her down and then she goes for the eyes, he might be able to simply turn away and recover

Anything MIGHT happen. Try this with your GF: Tell her to caress your cheek and then surprise you by suddenly pushing her thumb into your eye without any warning (not too hard though.) Tell me if you are able to dodge a surprise blow that starts from half an inch away from your eye. It is impossible, even if you are expecting it and the rapist isn’t. Of course anything might happen but I still think it is easier to react to a highly telegraphing groin kick, especially if the woman appears to be fighting back.
About the rapist retaliating yes it might happen. Once again do you think he will treat the woman with kid gloves because \”oh well you just tried to groin kick me so I guess I’m not gonna go violent. After all it wasn’t an eye gouge.\”

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make space as soon as the guy becomes too aggressive. Get up from the couch, clearly tell him to stop, telling him to leave, if he doesn’t, maybe get out or lock yourself in a room to call police

This is all very nice but not very realistic. Think about the situation:
The guy probably is already very close to her right? You think he is simply going to let her get up or lock herself up UNLESS of course she is using the feigning compliance trick. But once again as I stated all that is fine but if it has to go physical why warn your attacker about it? I simply do not see the logic.

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Hey baby, why dont you wait right here while I slip into something a bit more comfortable\” – Then lock herself in the room and call the police.

Siayn I am in total agreement but I thought that would be obvious: ALWAY try to avoid violent confrontation by escaping it if possible. But even in your example the woman is using the tactic I referred to : False compliance.
That is exactly what I am referring to so I guess that we agree. I’m sorry I wasn’t clear on this subject. In rape prevention what we teach is: How rapes occur, how to spot a date rapist, how to play \”the dating game\” safely, avoidance, psychological manipulation and using it to escape. Then we teach the physical part and combine it to the psychological.

However, if there is no chance of escape, if the woman cannot bluff her way out to escape and it has to go physical then I think it is best for them to once again bluff their way into one vicious attack before the fight ensues.

GK you are right that it is extremely hard for people in general to hurt other people. I think this is obvious. However, to assume that women might have harder time giving eye gouges and throat shots against a guy who clearly is trying to rape them is not right imo. Besides what should they do? Is it ok for them to try to do a thai kick to the leg of the rapist? Hurt them just a bit? Or should women just comply on date rapes since we can’t assume they can hurt their attacker?? Should they fight nice since they are girls? 😉 Sense of self-worth, fear management, self-esteem, belief systems, motivation, controlled aggression etc. are all things that a good rape prevention system should contain. I firmly believe that a woman can be vicious against a nice guy she was on a date with if she has the proper mindset.

Guys I think we are in agreement for once 😉
The only part that I am not sure if you agree with me or not is this:
IF the woman has no other option except to go physical I think it is better to load the dice in her favour using psychological manipulation to get one \”free\” shot into some vital part of the assaillant than just \”square off.\” That is all I am saying.

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Siayn as a matter of fact yes I have done research with rape victims.
John is right in that if a victim is passive a rape occurs 90% of the time.
This is true. But the statistic is for women who do not fight back at all! That is NOT what I am referring to.
I think there was a misunderstanding: I strongly advise women to fight back.
However, I advise them to fight back so that they load the dice in their favour.
If you just start to fight immediately chances are, that the opponent is bigger and stronger and you will have a hard time.
Think about it this way:
Would you like your sister to fight a potential rapist by squaring him off and fighting immediately or would you like your sister to have one free eye gouge or groin shot before the fight even starts?
To me the answer is a no brainer.
Actually I’ve had 2 students use this strategy in a potential rape situation and it worked extremely well.

Siayn I agree totally with your scenario: Women do not find it generally easy to \”offend\” apotential rapist and I agree that they should be polite once or twice (if they are on a date…I don’t think all men who make advances are rapists…)and try to reason and then be firm.
BUT if the situation still escalates to physical after the firm NO! wouldn’t it be smart at that point to APPEAR submissive to get that free shot?
You wrote:
\”The only thing that could have deterred this entire escalation process was the woman saying NO right from the start.\”
Simply not true. And as I said I strongly tell my students to be firm and say NO but what if that is not enough? Why start to fight fair? Why not try to lure the guy in and get the free shot?

And by sucker punch I did not refer to right cross. How about gouging out his eyes, how about a throat shot? I can almost guarantee that it will buy time enough to do a follow-up or run away.
Siayn your logic IMO is a bit flawed: You say that women should fight back and be firm immediately yet you say that women might not even drop a guy with a free shot? I mean…How can they win in a \”fair\” fight then??

EDIT: I just had to add, that I am not making this up myself. The tactic in question comes from a rape prevention program that is recommended by AWSDA (American Women’s Self Defense Association), the Montreal Sexual Assault Center and the CLSC, and also one Finnish organization of rape victims whom I introduced it to. In addition to this I have talked about this with LEO who specializes in sexual crimes and she was in total agreement with the feigning compliance tactic.

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It is true that criminals look for victims.
Therefore it is important not to look like one: Walk confidently, scan your surroundings etc. But this is the avoidance part, not the de-escalation part.
If you are still \”chosen\” despite all that avoidance and precautions then it usually is better to appear to be submissive (appear being the keyword here.)
Also not every opponent is a criminal as such. They might be just the random ego jocks who are just looking to bully someone, why give them the extra incentive? Instead appear calm, agree with them as much as possible, perhaps even appear scared. That is what they want so give it to them. They will find it much harder to go physical since you have not given them reason to do so (Blauers \”Pressure cooker\” theory.)

Of course every situation is different and requires different tactics. John brought up rape which imo is a good example of how feigning compliance can be used. (I’m not sure but I think we covered this before also on some other thread?)
If the date is turning into a date rape, the guy just doesn’t take even a strong NO! and starts to be more and more invasive, perhaps starting verbal violence, grabbing hair, tearing clothing etc. I personally would encourage the woman to appear scared, submissive and FEIGN compliance \”Please don’t hurt me, I will do whatever you want, just let go of my hair and I promise I will fulfill all your dreams etcetc..\” Now at this moment the assailant will think he is in charge. He will be less ready for the initial attack that the woman can deliver so that blow is very likely to hit.
Now imagine the same scenario but the woman starts to fight back immediately when the assailant has grabbed the hair:
– The assailant is much more \”fired up.\” To a degree he is expecting some form of resistance and he has his guard more up.
– The woman is probably at a disadvantage, is she fegns compliance she will be able to move tactically nearer the target area, disguise the coming blow into a caress and move her hands closer and so on.

Yes there are situations where it is more advantageous to appear firm and there are situations when it is good to appear even aggressive. For the most part however, feigned submissive behaviour will give better results if you have to go physical. Think of it as a psychological sucker punch if you will.

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Well Lambs I guess we just read different books since the stack I have tells that it is a very good tactic to de-escalate and appear to be submissive.

But then again I think this explains a lot:

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\”Secrets of Street Survival–Israeli Style. Staying Alive in a Civilian War Zone.\”

True, appearing submissive in a civilian was zone might not be a good idea.
Glad I do not live there.

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Lamb I don’t smoke anything.
But I try to read a lot. Perhaps you should try to read more too…
Try reading the works of leading self defense experts like Richard Dimitri, Geoff Thompson, Marc MacYoung etc. and you will see what this ego thing and APPEARING to be submissive is about…

Brian although you ended conversation let me answer your question:

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Second of all what do you suggest? You say be submissive, How?

Lets take the same scenario (the drunk at the bar, although you do not visit bars.)
Whatever he is accusing you of: staring at his girl, taking he’s seat, cutting in front of him in line etc. Try agreeing with him.
\”Is that blonde your girlfriend? I’m sorry I thought I recognized her from my high school days but obviously I was mistaken, I am so sorry, can I buy you a drink? Sorry I stared at her, I didn’t mean to disrespect either of you\”

\”You were waiting to be served and I cut in front of you? Oh sorry my bad, my mistake I didn’t see you. Sorry bro, go right ahead.\”

I could go on with these imaginary discussions but imagine the reaction of the average drunken ego maniac who has his friends watching the encounter. He can return to the table as the \”winner.\” He can be proud of himself.
Yes there are situations where appearing submissive can be bad. This is however much more rarer. It is also a cultural thing, in Brazil for example from what I have heard you should never appear submissive. But in most western cultures if the ego jocks see you as a victim they are not likely to go physical because either:
a) They do not get a reason to go physical. They will get physical if you challenge them by being firm and hence give them excuse \”See this guy is a loudmouth, he thinks he is Steven Seagal…\”
b) They do not see you \”worthy\” enough to go physical with.

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Well Brian lets think for a minute what will be typical answer to what you said you would do.

The assaillant is drunken young male in a bar and his friends are watching him. You had an argument about whether or not you looked at his girlfriend (who is also watching btw.)
Now when you do this:

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palms outward fingers spread in front of face somewhat) and feet in fight stance, saying loudly, \”Hey whoa, I don’t want any trouble here.

Is he more likely to respond a)\”Oh, well that is ok then, have a nice evening\” and go back to his table and his snickering friends.
or b) \”Well you little mother****** you got trouble.\”

Think about it, which is more likely?
Normally saying things like that will only escalate the situation. Your opponent usually wants to submit you so let him have his way. Appear submissive, scared even. He is more likely to leave you alone. The problem is our own ego: It is hard to be a whimpering pussy when you have trained in martial arts and you have your own ego on the line, you’re friends watching etc. You have to overcome that and you will be able to de-escalate most situations.

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Well Brian most of the experts nowadays actually encourage appearing passive, submissive even. In most cases it de-escalates the fight much better than \”Standing up for yourself!\” Talking like a victim usually satisfies the attacker and makes it harder for him to go physical. If you see that the situation will go physical then if he perceives you as a victim you are more likely to hit with your attack since he is not expecting it.
Now if you take a bit more firm stance and with a loud voice tell him to stop or back off or something like that in most cases that will only escalate the situation.

I understand that 9/11 and the media blasting the war on terror changes the ways people are thinking about violence.
The truth is guys that the threats in the US are still far from terrorists. Muggers, ego-maniacs, road rage, rapists, substance abusers, spousal violence, stuff like that. Not AK-47 toting suicide bombers.
Andre is right btw, before 9/11 if a plane was hijacked statistically the best thing to do was…absolutely nothing.
Using 9/11 as an example about violence is pretty far fetched IMO.

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KM practioners infighting with each. It is stupid and a waste of time.

Well now we know where the term \”contact combat\” really comes from 😛

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\”give an enormous elbow attack, and lets face it after that the attacker either moving back or down ad back,\”

No lets not face it. There are no guarantees that your opponent will be affected at all by your elbow. Maybe you miss, maybe he has another hand in front, maybe you do not hit well, maybe you hit and he is one tough SOB.
If you assume that is the case and build technique on that assumption you are doing a disservice to yourself and your students.

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It is the actual disarming process that is more difficult with a shorter barrel. If you have to wrap your fingers around the barrel of a snub nosed revolver that is pretty hard since there basically is no barrel…
Then you have to grab the top portion of the gun since you have to grab around the hand area and you can’t wrap fingers around the whole hand.
I don’t think I have ever seen so much debate over such a minor detail in a technique 🙄

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GK imagine you have to grab a snub nosed revolver for example. You cannot grab your thumb around the barrel because there basically is none. Neither can you wrap it around the hand since your thumb isn’t that long. Therefore you have to use the thumbless grib to grab, like you said, the top portion of the gun. I also think I get more leverage for the turning of the gun when I have the thumb against the gun/slide and it is not wrapped around.
I do not find the thumbless grib to be weak. I have never dropped the gun in practice when I have used it to hit (although I prefer the elbow) a pad or helmet of training partner.
Neither do I see the use of a thumb as being worse either, just a matter of personal preference. If one understands the differences I don’t see why one couldn’t use either one based on circumstances.

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