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\” find that if the student does not work to secure the wrist in subsequent follow ups, then that can sometimes allow the attacker to rotate the wrist and point the gun at the defender\”
And you are able to do this while he is constantly bombarding you with elbows and knees and headbutts? 😉
Personally I just tell the students to go in as deep as possible and grab as hard as possible wherever they can.
As for the disarm I prefer the \”thumbless\” grip. I personally find that it gives more leverage. Also as an added bonus when I grab the gun that way and then transfer it to my left hand I find it easier and faster to cock the slide back since the \”thumbless\” grip allows it.
But those differences IMO are very very minor and not that relevant to the outcome of the technique.John,
I have the Reality Fighting and self defense magazine in my hand from BB magazine, dated 2001. Page 28 showing the technique what we are talking about. The picture clearly shows the wrist area, even the description is mentioning the wrist area.
I have seen many instructors in the USA with the \”problematic disarm\”, so I have a different opinion.
Anyway, I do not beleive we could agree in this topic.
So when Eyal does this technique he doesn’t step in deep after redirecting the gun? Does he stay in place, just reaching further down the arm? Before the actual gun takeaway, does he end up in the same basic position that we do or is it somehow different? Not sure I’m able to picture this yet.
By \”breaking the gun down\” you mean pushing the barrel toward the floor instead of just twisting it more sideways, then taking it?
Excellent!
THESE are the kinds of discussions worth having. THESE are the things that move the system forward — although, I have to say that we shouldn’t get too bogged down in technique. Ultimately, aggressive training methods and stress drills will do more to save someone’s life than some of the things we are talking about.
I have tried both several times and I still prefer the original disarm. Either one is going to work if you have succeeded in hurting him with elbows and knees (of course, many things will work at this point), but I feel that the traditional grip is more secure as the fight continues. I would certainly rather strike the attacker with the muzzle using the traditional grip than the new one.
We’ve always preferred to reach forward then slide back to catch the wrist — this has been a long time, but minor, difference between Darren and Eyal. Catching the wrist DOES immobilize the gun more during a struggle, which is good. But if you catch farther up on the arm you are still usually safe. I’ve never particularly worried about this difference, although I prefer the wrist.
All right!! We finally found something to make John happy!! 😀 😉
So, Eyal catches further up the arm? At the elbow or at the forearm? Does he use his hand to secure the arm (thumbed grip or thumbless) or does he just use his own arm? Does he pin the attacker’s arm to the chest? Wouldn’t that grip be a little less secure (the attacker might have more room to move his arm and the gun)?
I was going to check our videos to see if Eyal does any gun disarms on those, to see if there are any differences.
I haven’t yet had a chance to try the thumbless grip thing, maybe tonight.
John wrote that he prefers the full grip because of his attack with the barrel. I prefer to attack with the elbow to avoid AD. But really once again it depends on distance and other things.
These differences are imo so very very minor that I do not see them that relevant to the tachnique. The key points are the same: hand/body defence, going deep in, securing the weapon arm tightly towards chest and attackin until the opponent is no longer a threat or until you feel you can disarm.Ville,
I beleive cathing the wrist, or aiming to the elbow-forearm area is a big difference. If you are aiming to the wrist, you can loose the whole hand with the pistol. If you holding the wrist, more difficult to reach the head with the elbow strike. (different distance) Altough I understand John’s point of holding the wrist could limit the move of the pistol, but the goal is a very fast strike – after grabbing the arm of course – and mostly it happens after the elbow strike the opponent falling down, so you are lucky if you can disarm him before he is down.
The disarm – I could not imagine better option what we use, not full grip, using thumb support.
In one of the other topic I was asked what about any other pistol threat. Do we use the thumb? Because threat from back and threat from side, behind arm are almost the same, so in this case we do. In other cases not – as much as I could think of – but the type of the weapon – small gun, revolver, pistol with compensator – could change a bit the position if the grip.
I have seen many US LE insructor practicing the pistol threat from the back, for me the difference was quite big.
When I trained with John and Darren a few years back I remember discussing about the differences. Now if I remember correctly KMAA also emphasizes going deep in. They transfer the grip to wrist area later on (Ryan/John correct me if I am wrong here.)
Actually this sliding is pretty natural if you do it during the elbow strike. Personally I prefer to hold the arm from where I catch it initially.Ville’s last description is correct. We do not seek to \”catch\” the wrist. We burst in deep, then the arm slides to the wrist with the counterattacks.
Kmman, I do not understand part of your post. If you are saying that the \”thumbless\” grip is better because of the weapon size, compensators, etc., why doesn’t that translate to the other gun threats?
I tried out the thumbless grip yesterday. I did the whole defense at least 20, maybe 30 times in a row, just using that grip, so I would get used to it. The more I used it, the better I felt with it. I thought maybe the disarm itself feels a bit stronger using this grip, although I still think it could happen more easily that you would accidently drop the gun. A few times I tried it and grabbed the gun a bit lower on the barrel, closer to the trigger, and, using that thumbless grip, felt myself grabbing strongly only with three fingers, the rest were kind of dangling there, above the trigger. I still didn’t lose the gun, but it didn’t feel quite as strong. I usually use an elbow as counter attack after the disarm, but if I were to hit with the gun, I might lose it more easily with the thumbless grip.
Supposedly, this grip is especially good to use for smaller guns. Does that mean guns with a shorter barrel? In that case, you might not be able to just grab the barrel, but you would also have to grab the part of the gun that’s above the trigger. Having small hands, I found grabbing that part with a thumbless grip gave me nothing really to hold on to. The thumbed grip felt more secure.
Overall, I don’t know, both could work. To truly judge it and try it out I think it’s best to do the \”new\” grip several times in a row. Not just once or twice, but a few dozen times. If you are used to doing something for years one way, then you suddenly do it another way it will definitly feel weird the first few times, so I’d say give it some time to try it out. I found that after using the thumbless grip a few dozen times, suddenly doing the thumbed grip felt weird. But overall, maybe the thumbed grip is more secure, especially if you have small hands, but one might have to try it some more.
I also took a look at our gun video to see if I could find Eyal doing the technique. I hadn’t looked at the video in a while, but I did find Eyal and realized that he was actually narrating the portion of the tape where gun from behind is explained. Amir is doing the technique, later it’s Michael, doing gun from the side behind the arm.
There is one short shot of Eyal doing the technique in a bar setting, once fast, once slow motion. Also Darren doing the technique in a street scene. I could now clearly see the difference in terms of the bursting in and where the attacker’s arm is grabbed. Since Eyal is narrating that portion of the tape, looks like everyone was doing \”his\” technique. You can see Amir doing it, it looks almost more like a quick spin when done fast, but he is bursting in also, but maybe not as much as we usually do. Then the arm is grabbed by the elbow. Seems the wrist grab would be more secure, but a bit further away. If the person is bigger, bursting in more may be necessary, to reach his chin (with a punch, not an elbow, if he is taller). Somehow \”Eyal’s\” technique looks a bit quicker, but maybe there’s not much of a difference. I wonder if hooking the arm like that would be strong enough if the opponent is a lot bigger and has longer, more muscular arms. At least his wrist is always going to be small enough for a smaller person to control.
Then I watched for the \”lethal disarm\” on those tapes and noticed the following: When Eyal makes the disarm in that bar scene, as well as Amir doing it in the portion Eyal narrates, the gun is pushed down only slightly, mostly kind of sideways, then down a little, but not in a dangerous way. When you see Darren do it in that street scene and also some of our other instructors, looks like they push the barrel down a lot more, potentially enough to maybe get shot in the leg or so. Maybe not, it’s not always easy to see. Also, at the end of the tape Darren explains the various disarms in detail and for the gun from the side behind the arm disarm (which is same as gun from behind) he mentions several times to \”break the gun down, over the thumb\”. So maybe we have been doing it that way, although maybe it wasn’t really dangerous.
Another thin
Another thing I’ve noticed on the tapes was gun to the side, in front of the arm. The defender steps back with his left leg, but the right leg stays in place. Is that still correct? I could swear that nowadays we step with both legs, first the left, push the attackers arm forward, then as the other arm comes in to catch the gun we also move the right leg. Which one is correct? Seems like leaving the right leg in place might give you a bit more leverage for the disarm.
And, while we are on the subject of changing gun techniques: Not to long ago, we changed the gun placement for gun from the front. Before, we used to push the gun forward, then pin it against the attacker’s right leg, right by the hip. Supposedly, that was more secure, making it harder for the attacker to point the gun back on you, if he decided to try and spin towards you. Now we say never put it there, at least not intentionally, try to pin it against his abdomen, or all the way across his body, because that way you will be further away from the line of fire. Has the IKMF made a similar change, or are they still doing it the old way? Which way do y’all prefer? Somehow I still kind of like the placement at the hip better, it feels more secure, but maybe that’s because I’ve been doing it like that for so long. kmman, which one do you do?
GK imagine you have to grab a snub nosed revolver for example. You cannot grab your thumb around the barrel because there basically is none. Neither can you wrap it around the hand since your thumb isn’t that long. Therefore you have to use the thumbless grib to grab, like you said, the top portion of the gun. I also think I get more leverage for the turning of the gun when I have the thumb against the gun/slide and it is not wrapped around.
I do not find the thumbless grib to be weak. I have never dropped the gun in practice when I have used it to hit (although I prefer the elbow) a pad or helmet of training partner.
Neither do I see the use of a thumb as being worse either, just a matter of personal preference. If one understands the differences I don’t see why one couldn’t use either one based on circumstances.
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