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Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
Couple of quick drive by pesos:
1. YMMV!!! For those giving opinions, unless you are an EXPERT on state and munipal laws EVERYWHERE, you are ONLY speaking for YOUR LOCALITY and/or in YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE. For those reading, you better make sure for yourself. Especially when it comes to NON-LE people talking about LE policies/procedures/responses/etc. YMMV also applies to your local LE agency/department and the individual officers you meet!
2. LE follow up is going to depend on what we believe might have happened (statements coupled with apparent injuries, etal), there may be minimal or MAJOR follow up after an incident. If you give someone injuries that require hospitalization or even transport to a hospital and you’re not around to give your side, there is always the possibility for you to end up being listed as a suspect on a crime report.
3. You are certainly entitled to defending yourself BUT if you do so with an illegally possessed item, you MAY face charges for the possession of that item regardless. And, if you instigated, stand by to standy by.
4. Knife laws (etal) vary greatly from place to place. Not only do you need to know your state codes/statutes, but county and city ones as well. You may have several different sets that could be applied to you at any one time. Not all LEOs are equally familiar with their respective laws and certainly not with other LEOs/places laws.
5. “Sometimes the cops aren’t interested and just don’t arrest anyone.” – possibly true but definitely not universal. It is often likely that “sometimes” there isn’t much to go on or that “sometimes” we require additional action from the parties involved. BTW, “fight calls” ARE a priority response for my department and, depending on what dispatch believes is happening, we often roll code 3 to them. If we don’t get there “that quickly”, quite possibly, there is sh1t jumping off somewhere else too.
6. “They (the cops) failed to protect you in the first place.” (yada yada yada etal) I’m not impressed with Kontact’s post – indicates to me a thinly veiled contempt for LE and an omniscient attitude. Still, it is true that you need to take care of yourself/your loved ones – and that includes being smart enough to avoid trouble in the first place. Don’t expect us to be there when you need us (i.e. don’t wait for us if the situation is getting out of hand) – there is way too little of us as it is – take care of business if you need to… REASONABLY!
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote Don:3. You are certainly entitled to defending yourself BUT if you do so with an illegally possessed item, you MAY face charges for the possession of that item regardless. And, if you instigated, stand by to standy by.6. “They (the cops) failed to protect you in the first place.” (yada yada yada etal) I’m not impressed with Kontact’s post – indicates to me a thinly veiled contempt for LE and an omniscient attitude. Still, it is true that you need to take care of yourself/your loved ones – and that includes being smart enough to avoid trouble in the first place. Don’t expect us to be there when you need us (i.e. don’t wait for us if the situation is getting out of hand) – there is way too little of us as it is – take care of business if you need to… REASONABLY!
Don: Don’t confuse omniscience with *inalienability* : The right of self-defense against violent aggression is inalienable. Logically this implies a person can NEVER be in the wrong in WHATEVER MEANS they choose in exercising that right. Bluntly, it’s none of the cop’s or the law’s (or one’s neighbors) g*ddamn business how a peaceful individual goes about the business of defending their person.
And I am not complaining the police do not protect us. I do not care, since I possess the right to fend for myself. However, I object when the state (through laws) and its enforcement (police) itself VIOLATES rights by DISARMING peaceful people, then imposes SANCTIONS on them for employing self-defense measures of which its bureaucrats (which includes legislators AND the roving variety of bureaucrat called police) do not approve .
And I do not have thinly veiled contempt when the state and the police violate rights in this (though not limited only to this) manner — my contempt is wide out in the open.
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote Kontact:Don: Don’t confuse omniscience with *inalienability* : The right of self-defense against violent aggression is inalienable. Logically this implies a person can NEVER be in the wrong in WHATEVER MEANS they choose in exercising that right. Bluntly, it’s none of the cop’s or the law’s (or one’s neighbors) g*ddamn business how a peaceful individual goes about the business of defending their person.And I am not complaining the police do not protect us. I do not care, since I possess the right to fend for myself. However, I object when the state (through laws) and its enforcement (police) itself VIOLATES rights by DISARMING peaceful people, then imposes SANCTIONS on them for employing self-defense measures of which its bureaucrats (which includes legislators AND the roving variety of bureaucrat called police) do not approve .
And I do not have thinly veiled contempt when the state and the police violate rights in this (though not limited only to this) manner — my contempt is wide out in the open.
Whatever dude. :rolleyes: Btw, I take offense at “roving variety of bureaucrat called police”. I also have contempt for both the pea-brained and pseudo-intellectuals (take your pick as to which category you fall into) in our society who reap the benefits of what law enforcement and the military provide but are too ignorant or obtuse to appreciate that. Welcome to Ignore.
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
http://www.nrtoday.com/article/20080624/NEWS/616362260/1055
I think Kontact was the shooter.
It’s perfectly OK to shoot an unarmed drunk guy passed out on your couch, it’s your inalienable right. No need to call 911, they’ll just F-it up.:rolleyes:
Karma’s a bitch, my friend.
Oh, and stay out of my gym.:thunbsdown:
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote phlegmon27:http://www.nrtoday.com/article/20080624/NEWS/616362260/1055I think Kontact was the shooter.
It’s perfectly OK to shoot an unarmed drunk guy passed out on your couch, it’s your inalienable right. No need to call 911, they’ll just F-it up.:rolleyes:
Karma’s a bitch, my friend.
Oh, and stay out of my gym.:thunbsdown:
Lets play Devil’s advocate for a moment…why isn’t it allright to shoot the unarmed drunk on your couch, whio broke in either accidently or on purpose…problem is depending on your stance on guns, you’ll view the situation to your paradigm…How do you know what transpired before the trigger was pulled, but your assumption in this was this was a kind hearted wayward drunk, who didn’t deserve to die… How the hell am I suppose to know his intent….did he lunge for the gun…threaten the homeowner, whose wife and daughter had to be scared ****less…they fled their home
We read something and formulate an opinion based on absolute prejudice…you have very little facts in the news article, yet you used it to attack kontact and vaidate your POV
Kontact may have some retoric going on and maybe even an attitude, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t valid points he’s making
The myth of the 1st responder is that they will protect you. They can only show up after an event. Kontact simply saying, that like in every other facet of life, he’s responsible…the problem comes up in the judgement, by people who may never had to deal with a violent encounter…isn’t it the same as the SF soldier being given ROE’s by some pencil pusher a million miles away from the war zone or the street cop lead by the pencil pusher
Now if you think my opinion is an attack on cops, ya missed the point. Cops provide a valuable service and most are there to help. The question is where is our responsibility to our safety and how do we protect ourselves from any litigation…which was the foundation of this thread. I’d guess a cop would be as worried about his every contact being litigated as well…not sure our laws for self defense were actually written by people who actually had to defend themselves…why should I ever have to flee my home?
One thing i learned working bars is ” Insert Alchol, Instant AZZhole”
No need to kick him outta your gymrofl2
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
I hear ya, and I appreciate your cool-headed approach.
I had the opportunity to talk to one of the LEOs from Sutherlin about this case, and the facts are these: Dude got drunk while mourning the loss of his mother. Wandered into the wrong house (unlocked house, BTW). The wife and daughter discovered him PASSED OUT on the couch and (get this) WENT TO THE BAR to get the man of the house (who himself been drinking). He went BACK TO THE HOUSE to confront the other drunk, and it ended with a fatal shooting. Nothing about that is excusable, but it all falls under Kontact’s blanket umbrella theory of “Anyone can do whatever they want to protect themselves, and F the cops.”
I am not willing to train someone who has as little regard for human life as Kontact seems to have. Other than his own life, of course.
If he wants to live in a lawless environment, The Congo is always looking for fresh blood.
BTW, I have a 12ga pump under my bed. 1st round is a bean-bag, the next 5 are 00buck.
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
I’m with Phlegmon.
Whatever it is that you do should be REASONABLE. I think I’ve mentioned/stated before – I’m all for protecting yourself and your loved ones; I’m all for POS’es getting what they deserve; Often, you may not have time to wait for public safety personnel – you may need to take immediate action…
That being said, there are still rules and guidelines that everyone in a civilized society is supposed to abide by. Yes, not all of them make sense. Yes, not all of them I or you or he/she/it agree with. Yes, criminals don’t follow the rules. Yes, the system is far from perfect. ETC. It is what it is. If you don’t agree/like, work on getting things changed (yeah, I know that is like pounding sand).
Having the attitude that rules don’t apply to you and that you can stroll down the street with an M60 in one hand and a bag of hand grenades in the other, saying I’m gonna do what a man’s gotta do (whatever it takes to “be safe” or “protect myself”), and F the police is puerile, idiotic, and a-holish.
With a little research, barring a discussion of the 2nd amendment, one might be surprised at how much “leeway” one could have working within current statutes with regards to how one can protect him/herself. Your best weapon is still your mind (intelligence, awareness, and common sense).
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
Only 2 people know what really transpired in that room. Did alcohol contribute to the event from both sides…more than likely…avoidable, maybe..i wasn’t there..tragic….yes
Don, you see more crap on a day to day basis than I can imagine… the stupidity of most of it is astounding. I was brought up to trust the police and to let them handle it. the L.A. riots changed all that for me. I saw my responsibility for my well being.
The problem is the criminal doesn’t give a crap and the citizen has to worry about losing everything he worked for if he doesn’t understand use of force. Cops are drilled in it, but is what their drilled in make sense tactically or legally..
And how many schools teach use of force in their study…Or shoot, don’t shoot training. Hit dont Hit. Not talking, just krav how many students would even think that class would be important enough to attend…and do the laws make sense when considered from a Reality self defense POV.
I don’t train in krav, i train in kung fu san soo, which has a very offensive mindset…it make sense from a self defense POV, but what are the legalities..so we get stuck in a vicious battle between what the laws of man dictate vs the laws of self perservation…those seconds of indecision could be fatal. The laws of man are artifical, while self preservation was hard wired from birth. It maybe trained out or beaten out, but at what cost. and like any idea there are `extremes on both sides
Then again the laws of self preservation dictate that I protect myself from the laws of man.
I entered this discussion because it may be one of the most important discussions we’ve ever had on this forum in the time I’ve been annoying you all as the nonkrav ahole:dunno:
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
IME, the media is rarely, if ever, 100% accurate.
That being said, allow me to also play devil’s advocate based upon the “facts” presented by the news story:
quote unstpabl1:Only 2 people know what really transpired in that room.Maybe it was only 1. How do we even know Smith was awake when he was shot?
Did alcohol contribute to the event from both sides…more than likely…avoidable, maybe
MAYBE Avoidable? Nope. That situation was ABSOLUTELY avoidable. Cramer and his family could have waited outside, at a neighbor’s house, etc.
..i wasn’t there..tragic….yes
Tragic. Agreed.
(remember, Devil’s advocate here): You had a guy who was basically drunk off his butt, wander into the wrong house, and got killed for simple trespassing. Trespassing. A misdemeanor. Not even a violent crime. There were no family members inside the house. He wasn’t breaking anything inside. He wasn’t threatening anyone. He wasn’t setting fire to the house. There was no exigency! Why didn’t the Cramers call 911 immediately after leaving the house? Why didn’t they call 911 from the bar? Why couldn’t they have waited SEVEN MINUTES for the police to show up? Is SEVEN MINUTES worth taking a life? The life of someone who also had a wife and kids? What if the guy had been an Alzheimer’s patient and broke into the house because he used to live there and thought he still did? Etc ad nauseam…
Personally, I’ll reserve judgment until I hear Cramer’s side of the story – it doesn’t sound very good but you never know. Even if the shooting was justified, you still have to be prepared to defend/explain your decision-making that led up to the shooting.
Don, you see more crap on a day to day basis than I can imagine… the stupidity of most of it is astounding. I was brought up to trust the police and to let them handle it. the L.A. riots changed all that for me. I saw my responsibility for my well being.
I’m not saying you do NOT have a right to protect yourself – in fact, I encourage that people BE as prepared as they can to protect themselves. Part of being prepared is being familiar with the framework you’re moving around in.
The problem is the criminal doesn’t give a crap and the citizen has to worry about losing everything he worked for if he doesn’t understand use of force. Cops are drilled in it, but is what their drilled in make sense tactically or legally..
One big problem, IMO, is that the “system”/society caters to the stupid and all too often protects the criminals. Productive members of society, almost as a rule, have more to lose than the vast majority of criminals. If you buy a gun, or carry a weapon, or study/train self-defense, IMO, it IS YOUR responsibility to be (more than) familiar with the legalities involved should you happen to use that gun, weapon, your training, etc.
And how many schools teach use of force in their study…Or shoot, don’t shoot training. Hit dont Hit. Not talking, just krav how many students would even think that class would be important enough to attend…and do the laws make sense when considered from a Reality self defense POV.
I dunno. You have to take your own survey. First, you have to know the laws…
I don’t train in krav, i train in kung fu san soo, which has a very offensive mindset…it make sense from a self defense POV, but what are the legalities..so we get stuck in a vicious battle between what the laws of man dictate vs the laws of self perservation…those seconds of indecision could be fatal. The laws of man are artifical, while self preservation was hard wired from birth. It maybe trained out or beaten out, but at what cost. and like any idea there are `extremes on both sides
Depends on what “laws of man” you’re talking about and what your “laws of self-preservation” are. Remember that the option of “Flight” is also “hard wired from birth”.
Then again the laws of self preservation dictate that I protect myself from the laws of man.
Whether or not you’re “justified” would depend again on what YOUR “laws of preservation dictate” and which “laws of man” you’re referring to.
I entered this discussion because it may be one of the most important discussions we’ve ever had on this forum in the time I’ve been annoying you all as the nonkrav ahole:dunno:
“laws of preservation”, “laws of man”, etal is too vague/ambiguous.
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote unstpabl1:And how many schools teach use of force in their study…Or shoot, don’t shoot training. Hit dont Hit. Not talking, just krav how many students would even think that class would be important enough to attend…and do the laws make sense when considered from a Reality self defense POV.Good question, Mike. We talk about this a lot in our classes. While things differ from state to state, the concept of reasonable prudence seems to be the gold standard (understand that I am not giving legal advice, as I am wholly unqualified to do so). This standard asks the following question: How would a reasonably prudent person, standing in your shoes, knowing what you know and believing what you reasonably believe to be true, act?
We follow this up with an example that involves the smallest person in the room (usually a 110 lb. female) and the largest person in the room (usually a 200 plus lb. male). We say that if the male attacks the female and the female counters and drops the male to the ground with a sudden counter-strike, can she reasonably explain why she would feel the need to kick this man in the head while he’s down? This course of action is reasonable if she believes that the man could recover, get up and resume his attack on her. The disparity of force between the two gives her some latitude. We then reverse the situation. The man would appear to be unreasonable in his use of force if he kicked her under similar circumstances.
Ultimately, what we teach the km-X kids holds for adults – walk away if you can, run away if you have to, defend yourself if you must. And if you must defend yourself, do it well.
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
+1, Don.
I have a CCW, and a .40 Springfield XDM. I do NOT have the right to pop off rounds at every person I see on the street who I believe might be a threat. My interpretation of the “Laws of self-preservation” might dictate that I should, but the “Laws of man” say that I can’t. Thank God for the “Laws of man”, or there would be a Columbine/Virginia Tech-type tragedy every day. It’s the “Laws of man” that make everyday life possible in a civilized society. Otherwise everybody would be running red lights, dirving 100MPH everywhere, stealing, killing, and raping everyone else at will. Like I said: if that’s your thing, by all means please move to one of the many countries in Africa that exists in a constant state of chaos.
I’m a critical nurse. Before that I was an EMT. Now I have the honor of being a Krav Maga instructor. I believe in the preservation of life. By all means, defend yourself and your loved ones, but don’t think that you have the inalienable right to take someone’s life at will.
Just remember: It’s better to avoid then to run, better to run then to fight, better to fight then to die.
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
“Walk away if you can, run away if you have to, defend yourself if you must. And if you must defend yourself, do it well.” – Stevetuna
“It’s better to avoid then to run, better to run then to fight, better to fight then to die.” – Phlegmon27
Awesome quotes. I love those. They reminded me of an old song with a slightly different message:
“I walk away from trouble when I can. Now please don’t think I’m weak, I didn’t turn the other cheek, and Papa I sure hope you understand, sometimes you gotta fight when you’re a man. Everyone considered him the coward of the countyÖ..” Kenny Rogers.
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
Ah, theres your problem…real gunners use Glocks;):
I had no objection to your stance, just the use of the article to cite, you’ll msee in future posts..oh yeah and you kicked Kontact outta your gym:woohoo:I found that funny. By that criteria…I think I’m banned from krav for life
Whether you have direct knowledge of the case, my point was we take newspaper articles as fact or worse yet the total “unbiased” report. Papers have biases. TV has bias, watch Fox and then CNN report the same story. Then we have our biases and tend to try to make facts fit our prejudices. Civilian use of even gun ownership, much less using one is a hot button for many… just depends which side of the aisle you sit
Hopefully, I’ll broach the other issues your thread brings up as I attempt to respond to Don and my internet buddy Steve. Nice meeting you Sir
quote phlegmon27:+1, Don.I have a CCW, and a .40 Springfield XDM. I do NOT have the right to pop off rounds at every person I see on the street who I believe might be a threat. My interpretation of the “Laws of self-preservation” might dictate that I should, but the “Laws of man” say that I can’t. Thank God for the “Laws of man”, or there would be a Columbine/Virginia Tech-type tragedy every day. It’s the “Laws of man” that make everyday life possible in a civilized society. Otherwise everybody would be running red lights, dirving 100MPH everywhere, stealing, killing, and raping everyone else at will. Like I said: if that’s your thing, by all means please move to one of the many countries in Africa that exists in a constant state of chaos.
I’m a critical nurse. Before that I was an EMT. Now I have the honor of being a Krav Maga instructor. I believe in the preservation of life. By all means, defend yourself and your loved ones, but don’t think that you have the inalienable right to take someone’s life at will.
Just remember: It’s better to avoid then to run, better to run then to fight, better to fight then to die.
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote unstpabl1:Ah, theres your problem…real gunners use Glocks;):I had no objection to your stance, just the use of the article to cite, you’ll msee in future posts..oh yeah and you kicked Kontact outta your gym:woohoo:I found that funny. By that criteria…I think I’m banned from krav for life
Whether you have direct knowledge of the case, my point was we take newspaper articles as fact or worse yet the total “unbiased” report. Papers have biases. TV has bias, watch Fox and then CNN report the same story. Then we have our biases and tend to try to make facts fit our prejudices. Civilian use of even gun ownership, much less using one is a hot button for many… just depends which side of the aisle you sit
Hopefully, I’ll broach the other issues your thread brings up as I attempt to respond to Don and my internet buddy Steve. Nice meeting you Sir
So you “Rockout with your Glock out?” thumbsup
I don’t know Kontact, he’s never been in my gym, and I don’t ever want him there.
I understand your point on the POV we bring to news stories, and the lack of ability to confirm the validity of news stories in general. I’m also a Pitbull owner, and always roll my eyes at people who point out the news stories about how dangerous they are. I only used to article to highlight an extreme situation where Kontact’s philosophy led to an avoidable death.
It’s good to meet you too, sir. I look forward to many more posts! :wav:
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
:angry:Oh Crap…I just spent an hour on a reply to Don and Steve and lost it while proofreading it. aaarrrggghhh. I’ll get to it over the weekend and come out of devils advocate mode. I mostly bumped this thread because its an important issue that isn’t taught in most schools or thought about enough by students till they are sitting in the back of Don’s patrol car or worse find themself in a cell with the homies of the guy they just hospitalized or ended
Pits scare me, even though they have sweet dispositions, but they always look psychotic or worse yet look at me as lunch. I bet I’d be tasty toothumbsupprobaly what their thinking:dunno:
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