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Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote stevetuna:I had a very near miss about two weeks ago while at the beach. The long story short is that some drunk / drugged guy decided that he was going to play with my 7 yr. old daughter and her two friends.Yet another example of how when the shizz goes down, it so often is totally out of the blue & unexpected….what could be more random than something like this while being out with your kids at the beach.. Thanks for sharing that story!
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
plegmon27: you’re being extremely reckless– you’re falsely attributing to me views I don’t hold, then attacking those views. You should first try to understand where someone is coming from before attacking them like a hothead — which is ironic because it makes you guilty of the very thing for which you’re denouncing that guy in the news story you linked.
Just where the f do you get from what I wrote that I “have little regard for human life”, or that I somehow believe there exists “a right to kill anyone at your own will”, or that I don’t support laws defending rights?? Show me the quote, sir. Those are reckless strawmen. I said people possess the right of self-defense against violent aggresssion. Rape , murder and stealing all involve aggression and responding in a fashion PROPORTIONATE to the offense is one’s right. To save space I didn’t explicitly state that the right of self-defense AUTOMATICALLY implies the principle of PROPORTIONALITY. I also stated I am against laws that disarm individuals or prosecute them for exercising a (proportionate) response to a threat since such laws violate rights. None of the Hobbesian chaos you hysterically wrote about would take place in the absence of such bad laws. I’m defending rights. Why wouldn’t you want someone who defends rights in your class??
And I’ve come home to strange drunks passed out on the landings in front of the doors to apartments where I’ve lived . One seemed harmless so I told him to leave and walked around him. Another scared me and I called the police. In neither instance did I have the right to kill the trespasser since my life wasn’t in danger. A proportionate response to trespassing would be fist asking someone to leave, then escalating thereafter based on how the trespasser responds, and so forth.
Don: You didn’t address anything I wrote, you insulted me, then repeated a tired and unrelated platitude about supporting the police and mililtary (which no one brought up) and I’m the one who should be ignored?
I’m defending rights and I have no problem with police when they do the same. Enforcing laws and enforcing rights however are not the same thing.
I”m sorry your’e offended. In most municipalities police departments are tax-funded bureaucracies and the officers are among its employees. Which part of that is not correct?
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote Kontact:The right of self-defense against violent aggression is inalienable. Logically this implies a person can NEVER be in the wrong in WHATEVER MEANS they choose in exercising that right. Bluntly, it’s none of the cop’s or the law’s (or one’s neighbors) g*ddamn business how a peaceful individual goes about the business of defending their person.The phrase “WHATEVER MEANS they choose” (note caps) implys the use of lethal force, and does not address proportionality. You neglect (by choice, I believe) to define “violent aggression”. Therefore, you are free to percieve “violent aggession” in any way you choose, and respond to it as aggressively as you want without recourse. I do not agree with this, and would not be willing to offer you instruction. “it’s none of the cop’s or the law’s…business” shows your contempt of the Rule of Law, and implys a desire to live in a lawless state.
I’m glad to see you scale back your anti-LE rhetoric. Remember: while the police department may be a bureaucracy, individual officers are people doing a very dangerous and necessary job.
Would you like to share your profession with the class? I have some theories, but I don’t want to jump to any more conclusions.:confused:
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
No it does not. And I haven’t changed my position at all, yet you continue to twist my meaning even after explaining it to you. “Whatever means necessary” is NOT a license to violate proportionality. I have just explained this, yet you choose to ignore it. Proportionality means you have the right to address a threat proportional to the degree to which you are threatened: if someone is pushing you , you have the right to defend yourself proportional to their aggression (their pushing you) to make them stop -with whatever means at your disposal to carry this out . If someone is threatening your life you have the right to end their life (with whatever means at your disposal) if that is what is necessary to prevent them from doing so. Yet, the means one chooses to employ is irrelevant-that is what “whatever means necessary” means. When the thugs attacked me I believed in that moment my life was about to end- therefore I had the right to defend myself by ending one or both of theirs if necessary, if that is what it took–but the means I chose to employ to carry this out would have been irrelevant. Laws which disarm people and prosecute them for employing means of defense of which bureaucrats or one’s neighbors disapprove are wrong because such laws VIOLATE RIGHTS. I don’t believe one is morally required to justify a genuine (and proportional) act of self-defense to any third party. The Hobbesian “chaos and lawlessness” you hyper-ventilate over does not follow from this. I desire to live in a society in which rights are defended, so for now I’ll just say I support laws that defend person and property, though I would ( though it’s probably beyond the scope of this thread ), argue for a system in which agencies of defense were not coercively-funded monopolies –i.e, at the point of a gun–such as you imply you favor through your worn-out platitudes. This is because I don’t think it’s possible to bring about moral ends by employing immoral means.
I ‘m a mortgage broker and I play music professionally on the side; I don’t see what difference that makes.
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
Rgr. That was my 2nd guess.
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote Kontact:First of all, if you are the victim of a violent attack, A) you have the right to defend yourself by any means at your disposal that you see fit, and B) you have no moral obligation whatsoever to report it to anyone, period–doesn’t matter what “the law” says.As for what is practical, I think that has to be up to each individual to decide depending on the circumstances. Personally, I don’t see any benefits to reporting it to “the authorities” and can definitely see drawbacks. First, they failed to protect you in the first place. Then you report it, and they can absurdly decide you violated this or that law in the process of exercising your absolute right to self-defense, and you get attacked once more-this time by your supposed “protectors” !
Or just their incompetence could get you in trouble: When I was attacked (sucker punched in the adams apple as the thugs passed me on a sidewalk–this was before I knew about KM) calling the police afterward turned out to be what could have been a deadly mistake– I felt they could have revealed my identity to the thugs, let them go for lack of evidence (my word against theirs), then the enraged thugs could target me for lethal retaliation.
I don’t see any good that can come out of reporting such an incident.
I’m missing the part where Kontact mentions proportionality in his original post. I’m getting old, can someone help me find it?:banghead:
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
I understand Kontact, and he makes a valid point. The problem with it, though, is that the Law is a little corrupt because corrupt people have influenced it. Looking back at some of the first posts in this thread, it has been explained that one who is defending oneself has to defend just enough, and make sure not to become the aggressor. While it may seem absurd to normal, sensible people, the Law must take into account psychopaths who would take a situation too far and kill someone, thereby twisting the concept of proportionality which you described.
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
That’s an excellent point. It wasn’t lost on me either, but you articulate it very well. I think the question it raises can be reduced to an even simpler form , and that is, simply– how should violations of rights be dealt with?
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
How far are you allowed to go when defending someone else?
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote phlegmon27:How far are you allowed to go when defending someone else?Screw em’ Its a dog eat dog world…survival of the fittest…lost over a 100 lbs that way…left her and her smart mouth in that biker bar…been a much more peaceful world ever since:rolleyes:rofl2
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
:woohoo:thumbsupbow1:beer:rofl2
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
I love spirited discussions like this, extremely entertaining. The comedic content of mikes posts alone are well worth the price of admission.
OT: Don, I got to play with your bomb squad guys last night at the airport, good times!
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
I didn’t take Kontact as being an anarcist or as for out as others did, but understand why they did…love spirited discussion, its the death threat PM’s I can do without;):
Saw this the other day as a tag line
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
I don’t see that sentiment as anti cop. I see it about being or understanding that like in every other aspect of life, you are responsible for your safety. And that includes understanding the laws of man
the laws of nature vs laws of man….what about the woman who ex has repeatedly threatened to kill her. She knows he’s gonna do it. Goes thru all the paperwork and of course gets killed by him. The laws of survival would say eliminate the threat preemptively, but she can’t because of the laws of man, which can’t really protect her. She has to wait in fear for him to escalate and the eventual ambush…any thoughts…:jerry:
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote :love spirited discussion, its the death threat PM’s I can do without;):i call that a spirited training oppertunity
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
I found this while wandering the Internet.
Imi emphasized good citizenship and a strong sense of morality. The following pillars of Imi’s system help summarize his teachings.
Good citizenship. Treat your fellow-citizens with respect and obey the law. Imi sought to instill “a sense of self worth.”
Train properly to avoid injury. Do not injure your partner or yourself by training haphazardly or over aggressively.
Act humbly. Do not show-off your skills or provoke others to test your mettle. Act courteously toward others. As Imi said, “The most necessary thing, is to educate you– and that is the hardest thing–to be humble. You must be so humble that you don’t want to show him that you’re better than him. That is one of the most necessary things for pupils. If a pupil tells me, ‘I fought him and beat him,’ it’s no good.”
Avoid confrontation. Avoid or deescalate a potential violent situation whenever possible. When asked about a hypothetical confrontation that could be avoided, Imi responded, “Know what I told you – to be humble. I don’t want to get beaten. I don’t want to beat him. My purpose in learning krav maga is not to get hurt. If you beat him, you want to show him you can beat him. If you turn away, you have enough confidence.”
Do not use unnecessary force. Respond to a threat or attack with only the necessary amount of force to neutralize the attack. Imi underscored, “That is most necessary and difficult thing in krav maga – that I must be so good that I don’t must kill.”
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