- This topic has 77 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 8 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote phlegmon27:How far are you allowed to go when defending someone else?Depends on your local/state codes/statutes (or if you decide to follow them or not :rolleyes: ). I would GUESS that many or most places also have a clause that allows you to use force in the defense of others. If so, the circumstances and your perception will determine “how far you are allowed to go”…
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote CJs Dad:OT: Don, I got to play with your bomb squad guys last night at the airport, good times!Were they able to find all your devices? :dunno: rofl2
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote unstpabl1:I didn’t take Kontact as being an anarcist or as for out as others did, but understand why they did…love spirited discussion, its the death threat PM’s I can do without;):Saw this the other day as a tag line
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
I don’t see that sentiment as anti cop. I see it about being or understanding that like in every other aspect of life, you are responsible for your safety. And that includes understanding the laws of man
I don’t see it as anti-cop either. If you, however, somehow Blame LE for a situation just because they weren’t there OR you have contempt for LE (especially when you are a keyboard commando barking from the comfort of your couch at home and have done NOTHING towards making society a better place), then I have some choice curse words for you. :angry:
the laws of nature vs laws of man….
You keep saying that. I’d love to hear what they are – specifically.
what about the woman who ex has repeatedly threatened to kill her. She knows he’s gonna do it. Goes thru all the paperwork and of course gets killed by him. The laws of survival would say eliminate the threat preemptively,
A. OR, remove yourself from the threat. What were the specific details of that incident?
but she can’t because of the laws of man,
B. In that case – exactly which “laws of man” prevented her from protecting herself?
which can’t really protect her.
C. Why not? Again, which “laws of man” prevented her from leaving or protecting herself???
She has to wait in fear for him to escalate and the eventual ambush…
D. Why does she have to “wait in fear for him to escalate and … ambush”???
any thoughts…:jerry:
Yeah. It sounds like this whole “laws of man” vs “laws of survival” argument is extremely FLAWED. 1. IMO, I don’t think you “laws of survival” guys know enough about your local/state penal/criminal codes/statutes – I would recommend you go back and study them. 2. IMO, it certainly sounds like there is NO middle ground for you “laws of survival” guys – either kill or be killed. That guy there or them over there are a threat to me. Wahhh, the “laws of man” prevent me from throwing a grenade into their midst as a pre-emptive strike…
BTW, I’d love to hear the answers to A, B, C, and D embedded above…
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote phlegmon27:I found this while wandering the Internet.Imi emphasized good citizenship and a strong sense of morality. The following pillars of Imiís system help summarize his teachings.
Good citizenship. Treat your fellow-citizens with respect and obey the law. Imi sought to instill ìa sense of self worth.î
Train properly to avoid injury. Do not injure your partner or yourself by training haphazardly or over aggressively.
Act humbly. Do not show-off your skills or provoke others to test your mettle. Act courteously toward others. As Imi said, ìThe most necessary thing, is to educate youñ and that is the hardest thingñto be humble. You must be so humble that you donít want to show him that youíre better than him. That is one of the most necessary things for pupils. If a pupil tells me, ëI fought him and beat him,í itís no good.î
Avoid confrontation. Avoid or deescalate a potential violent situation whenever possible. When asked about a hypothetical confrontation that could be avoided, Imi responded, ìKnow what I told you ñ to be humble. I donít want to get beaten. I donít want to beat him. My purpose in learning krav maga is not to get hurt. If you beat him, you want to show him you can beat him. If you turn away, you have enough confidence.î
Do not use unnecessary force. Respond to a threat or attack with only the necessary amount of force to neutralize the attack. Imi underscored, ìThat is most necessary and difficult thing in krav maga ñ that I must be so good that I donít must kill.îIMO, this should be posted permanently on the front page of the website and at the top of the forum home page…
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
I’m with Don on this. Great find. Thanks for posting that!
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
Yer welcome, boys :):
It sums up my philosophy on Krav, and life in general. It also highlights why I have such a low threshold for goofballs like Kontact.
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote Don:Yeah. It sounds like this whole “laws of man” vs “laws of survival” argument is extremely FLAWED. 1. IMO, I don’t think you “laws of survival” guys know enough about your local/state penal/criminal codes/statutes – I would recommend you go back and study them. 2. IMO, it certainly sounds like there is NO middle ground for you “laws of survival” guys – either kill or be killed. That guy there or them over there are a threat to me. Wahhh, the “laws of man” prevent me from throwing a grenade into their midst as a pre-emptive strike…BTW, I’d love to hear the answers to A, B, C, and D embedded above…
Answered this yesterday and lost the post again..new laptop..so my enthusiasm for this is waning
Couple quick things
I bumped this threead to begin with as a devils advocate for two reasons. !st most studios play lipservice to the lrgalities of the techs they teach. And most students could care less till their in the back of your car. I was hoping for a lesson in legalese, only in frikken englishthumbsup
@nd I thought you bguys were a little harsh with Kontact and laid him out as anextremist. I’m frequently wrong but I didn’t see that what he said was all that radical. Now you got me pegged as something I’m more than likely not…I don’t think I’d throw a hand grenande into a group of people:dunno: But isn’t that what they were made for?:wav: You decided there is no middle ground for me…huge misread…I’d be labeled a centrist…I look at both sides and make up me own mind
Your recommendation is what I pushed this for in the first place, only w/o the legal BS of reading penal codes…
If your accussing me of a contempt of LE or being a keyboard warrior, I may admit to the latter, but not the LEO thing. I do train though.
Law of nature vs law of men seems to have rattled your cage. Probably because we have different definitions. I’m a simple guy, simple thoughts.
The laws of nature are simple. We’re programmed to survive. If I took the most passive among us and held their head underwater they would do whatever it takes to get free….whatever it takes…The laws of man were devised to prevent the chaos that mentality could cause…both are flawed, but we work with what we got
In the meantime, the main theme I espoused here has been about accepting responsibility for your life, which means your Self….. defense. This is as broad as defending yourself from attack or getting a flu shot and eating right. ANd in that defense means learning the laws so I don’t end up in the back of your patrol car some Saturday night, with huge legal fees
hope this helps
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
Meanwhile, back at the ranch (i.e. the original question) –
I think you should absolutely report it to the police ASAP. I used to train with a pro boxer. We did work a lot on technique, but the intent was for condition, not to train for a fight. Anyways, he was involved in a road rage incident a few years ago. Some driver nearly pulled into his lane from the right, he swerved into an opening to his left, and they guy in that lane but behind him got mad and followed him into a parking lot. This guy got out of his car with an aluminum bat, and my friend was saying “Easy man, I didn’t mean to cut you off.” As the guy wound up to take a swing with the bat, my friend did what pro boxers are good at and defended himself. Some time in the middle of all of this, someone looked up from a cafe sidewalk, all they saw was a tall skinny black man beating the hell out of a fat white guy and called 911. The bat had rolled under a car, the witness never saw it. It was even worse for my friend because he had a pro boxing license in Florida. He was very fortunate that he stayed put until the police arrived because the witness had written down his license plate number, etc. The road rage guy of course claimed he was attacked WITH the bat. If he had taken off, that story would have gone unchallenged until much later.
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote unstpabl1:Answered this yesterday and lost the post again..new laptop..so my enthusiasm for this is waningI still haven’t seen your answers to A-D …
Couple quick things
I bumped this threead to begin with as a devils advocate for two reasons. !st most studios play lipservice to the lrgalities of the techs they teach. And most students could care less till their in the back of your car. I was hoping for a lesson in legalese, only in frikken englishthumbsup
We can discuss and learn but not if you’re only willing to just throw a couple of vague terms out there and leave it at that…
@nd I thought you bguys were a little harsh with Kontact and laid him out as anextremist. I’m frequently wrong but I didn’t see that what he said was all that radical.
Besides having contempt for law enforcement (“roving bureaucrats” or some nonsense like that)? Maybe you missed that part… :thunbsdown:
Now you got me pegged as something I’m more than likely not…I don’t think I’d throw a hand grenande into a group of people:dunno: But isn’t that what they were made for?:wav: You decided there is no middle ground for me…huge misread…I’d be labeled a centrist…I look at both sides and make up me own mind
If I misread, it’s because you supported Kontact and didn’t bother (and still haven’t) explaining your position further…
Your recommendation is what I pushed this for in the first place, only w/o the legal BS of reading penal codes…
You throw around terms like “laws of survival” vs “laws of man” – and you claim that they don’t mix with each other. You still haven’t defined “laws of survival” and, I’m ASSuming here that “laws of man” refer to things such as penal/criminal codes. IF you are not willing to familiarize yourself with the “laws of man” (“legal BS of reading penal codes”) – how can you hope to educate yourself? If you don’t know the “laws of man” – you really have no leg to stand on when suggesting that the “laws of man” prevent one from protecting oneself (or whatever it is that you are suggesting – since you still haven’t clarified that)…
If your accussing me of a contempt of LE or being a keyboard warrior, I may admit to the latter, but not the LEO thing. I do train though.
Misread on your part. I never accused you of being or felt you were condescending towards LE OR were a keyboard warrior.
Law of nature vs law of men seems to have rattled your cage.
Nope. Misread on your part.
Probably because we have different definitions. I’m a simple guy, simple thoughts.
Maybe we do, maybe we don’t – I still don’t know yours – maybe we’ll never know.
The laws of nature are simple. We’re programmed to survive. If I took the most passive among us and held their head underwater they would do whatever it takes to get free….whatever it takes…The laws of man were devised to prevent the chaos that mentality could cause…both are flawed, but we work with what we got
If someone was holding your head underwater – apparently in an attempt to drown you – which “laws of man” would prevent you from doing “whatever it takes” to get free?????? Which “laws of man” would make it “illegal” for you to doing “whatever it takes” to get free?????
In the meantime, the main theme I espoused here has been about accepting responsibility for your life, which means your Self….. defense. This is as broad as defending yourself from attack or getting a flu shot and eating right. ANd in that defense means learning the laws so I don’t end up in the back of your patrol car some Saturday night, with huge legal fees
I’m not sure why this isn’t getting through to you – no one here is saying you can’t protect yourself or your loved ones. To reiterate ad nauseam – YOU JUST HAVE TO BE REASONABLE ABOUT IT.
Also, I don’t get your inconsistency – one one hand you’re suggesting that it’s “BS” to read penal codes – on the other, you’re suggesting that learning the laws goes hand in hand with practicing self-defense… :dunno:
hope this helps
Not really but I’m about done with this sidetracked topic… If you want to discuss further, then answer A-D. Otherwise, nevermind.
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote unstpabl1:@nd I thought you bguys were a little harsh with Kontact and laid him out as anextremist. I’m frequently wrong but I didn’t see that what he said was all that radical. Now you got me pegged as something I’m more than likely not…First of all, I don’t have you pegged as anything. You played Devil’s Advocate, and any response was related to what you wrote while in that role. If anything I said seemed like a personal attack , I apologize. I was only attempting to punch holes in your logic and keep the debate going.
As for our “friend” Kombat, here are a few quotes that may explain my ire towards him.
-First of all, if you are the victim of a violent attack, A) you have the right to defend yourself by any means at your disposal that you see fit, and B) you have no moral obligation whatsoever to report it to anyone, period–doesn’t matter what “the law” says. –
The fact that he puts The Law in quotes demonstrates contempt for it. For me to consider you a productive member of society, you have to be civilized and adhere to The Law. Whatever your personal beliefs are regarding the validity of The Law; if you do not obey it you are, by definition, a criminal. This is not my opinion, itís The Law. Work to change it, abide by it, or find someplace else to be.
-Personally, I don’t see any benefits to reporting it to “the authorities” and can definitely see drawbacks. ñ
Again, the use of quotes around The Authorities reinforces his contempt for those who enforce The Law. These folks work hard, and put their lives on the line for you. Show some respect.-Or just their incompetence could get you in trouble: When I was attacked (sucker punched in the adams apple as the thugs passed me on a sidewalk–this was before I knew about KM) calling the police afterward turned out to be what could have been a deadly mistake– I felt they could have revealed my identity to the thugs, let them go for lack of evidence (my word against theirs), then the enraged thugs could target me for lethal retaliation.-
Now this tirade gets murky. His tense confusion in the run-on sentence makes it unclear if he reported the attack and had a negative experience with the police, or if he did not report it and is stating a baseless hypothesis as though it were a factual occurrence. It either did happen
(and for that I would be truly sorry), or itís a bunch of bull. Bear in mind, he was attacked by someone else who has no regard for The Law.
-The right of self-defense against violent aggression is inalienable. Logically this implies a person can NEVER be in the wrong in WHATEVER MEANS they choose in exercising that right. Bluntly, it’s none of the cop’s or the law’s (or one’s neighbors) g*ddamn business how a peaceful individual goes about the business of defending their person.-
This is where I start to see him as potentially dangerous. In a civilized society, it is everyoneís business how you conduct yourself. If you hear screaming from the apartment next door, do you say: ìNone of my business.î Or ìPerhaps I should call someone to investigate that.î? It is the copsí, the Lawís, and your neighborsí business. You donít live on the island nation of Kontactopia. I am going to be concerned about what is happening in my neighborhood, and the cops have a duty to investigate and uphold The Law (whether or not you recognize it).
-And I am not complaining the police do not protect us. I do not care, since I possess the right to fend for myself. However, I object when the state (through laws) and its enforcement (police) itself VIOLATES rights by DISARMING peaceful people, then imposes SANCTIONS on them for employing self-defense measures of which its bureaucrats (which includes legislators AND the roving variety of bureaucrat called police) do not approve.-
He does not care, because he has the right to fend for himself. If you have read any of Tim McVeighís writing, you would have goose bumps right now. You should find the above quote concerning.-And I do not have thinly veiled contempt when the state and the police violate rights in this (though not limited only to this) manner — my contempt is wide out in the open.-
Do I need to explain this?
-I’m defending rights and I have no problem with police when they do the same. Enforcing laws and enforcing rights however are not the same thing. ñ
The Law is The Law. Work to change it, or go away. What you cannot do is arbitrarily decide not to follow it. This makes you a criminal. Iím not a fan of stopping at red lights, but I do.-Laws which disarm people and prosecute them for employing means of defense of which bureaucrats or one’s neighbors disapprove are wrong because such laws VIOLATE RIGHTS. I don’t believe one is morally required to justify a genuine (and proportional) act of self-defense to any third party.-
Again the options are to either A) work with the system to facilitate change, B) go away, or C) suck it up and be a law-abiding member of society. Everyone has a different version of what rights they are entitled to. Should we allow everyone to exercise their rights and disregard The Law?
Playing Devilís Advocate: if we followed the Laws of Nature Kontact should have been killed by the punk that attacked him on the street. Being too weak to defend himself, he was not fit to survive and it would have been justified as ìSurvival of the Fittestî. *Discuss*Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
@ Dave: Good story. I agree with your assessment that you should always report. Criminals run, good guys call it in thumbsup
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
Geez Don, starting to feel like I’m in a fight here, mostly over things I’m not sure I’m that passionate about. If I wanted to fight, I’d go back to that biker bar and get that 100lbs back. Least I could count on great make-up sex after:woohoo:
I’m not that fancy with the quotes so its harder to play your game, but I’ll try…Again, I bumped this post to get more dialogue going on the actual laws of self defense…in short to learn more, not to espouse morality..I got nothing at stake here. I stated in my first post, Playing Devils advocate, I haven’t stated any position other than to push learning more and taking “personal responsibility”. Simply relying on anyone else to take care of you is probably not a good plan. Oh yeah, and that in my expirience, been in a lot of martial art classes..I don’t remember much discussion on legalities. I bet because your a Force instructor, there is probably more discussion.
I’ll answer all your questions
A) was not a specific incident, but a question on far she has to go to remove herself from the threat. We’ve all read or known women who’ve done everything legal to remove themselves from a threat.( Got a friend hiding now,2000 miles away from her life.) Only to be severely beaten or killed….if you know someone is going to kill you, if they say their going to kill you and your only protection is a piece of paper, what are your options?
I also won’t type online anything I think can be used against me at a later date. I use my real name w/ my user name
B) How are the laws/penal codes protecting her, if she has to uproot her life to remove herself from the threat. Also Laws are regional and cultural. Beating your wife or daughter is legal in many places of the world. Honor killings are legal. Is it possible there is a flaw in some of the worlds laws or even our laws..B wasn’t a statement or a position, it was a question
C,D…again it was a question for discussion. Why does she have to wait for the ambush?….How many murder suicides do we have a year…What are a persons options in those situations? How do you legally protect yourself . friends and love ones from their poor choices of lovers:D:
Its like the morality question of if knowing what you know now, would you have murdered Hitler if you had the chance. If she’s repaetedly threatened or beaten and murders him in his sleep is she protected. I mean she could remove herself from the threat…call the cops, but when he gets out the next day…maybe he kills the whole family….
I haven’t stated a position, just asking questions. I learn better with an open mind
on to your next batch of questions
Yes I read the contempt for LEO and roving bereaucrat lines and said in an earlier post that I got the attitude thing. But who doesn’t have contempt for the pencil pushers or those who espouse things without ever stepping into the line of fire. didn’t you register a touch of contempt for keyboard warriors. I stuck up for him simply because I thought he had valid points, but you jumped him pretty hard…if ya kill the discussion and don’t seek to understand first, we don’t learn anything and all the typing is masterbation. I kinda wanted to hear what he had to say. I like you Don, Think there is a lot of good stuff to learn from you, but we’ve had 2 conversations on here recently, both times I was really interested in what I could learn from them, both times I’ve felt like you’ve felt attacked, not sure why
You bring up a great point with if your not willing to familiarize your self with the Penal code section of your last post….Thats the same point I’ve pushed thru this thread….everyone should be familiar with them…I’m not and hoped the thread would help. Again questions, why aren’t they taught in schools, why aren’t they taught in M/A classes…I think they may be taught in handgun classes, but am not sure. Don’t own a gun.
My definition
Laws of nature: we’re preprogramed to survive. At our base level we will do anything to survive….lie, cheat, steal, charm, kill, hurt, ask, help, attack, ambush…..if you were trapped behind enemy lines, your behavior and your morality may be different than catching the bus in L.A..
Laws of Man: are laws made by man presumably to protect. Some protect the rich, some the stupid, some the bureaucrats, etc some are rightious, some are wrong..some are right at sometimes, wrong at others. some are made by people w/o a clue, others by people who get it, some are enforced by people who really want to help, others who could care less or worse
If it helps Don, I was looking into being a reserve officer, but some physical stuff got in the way
Hope this helps. BE well and safe….crap I gotta learn how to type
mike
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote unstpabl1:Geez Don, starting to feel like I’m in a fight here, mostly over things I’m not sure I’m that passionate about. If I wanted to fight, I’d go back to that biker bar and get that 100lbs back. Least I could count on great make-up sex after:woohoo:I’m not that fancy with the quotes so its harder to play your game, but I’ll try…Again, I bumped this post to get more dialogue going on the actual laws of self defense…in short to learn more, not to espouse morality..I got nothing at stake here. I stated in my first post, Playing Devils advocate, I haven’t stated any position other than to push learning more and taking “personal responsibility”. Simply relying on anyone else to take care of you is probably not a good plan. Oh yeah, and that in my expirience, been in a lot of martial art classes..I don’t remember much discussion on legalities. I bet because your a Force instructor, there is probably more discussion.
I’ll answer all your questions
A) was not a specific incident, but a question on far she has to go to remove herself from the threat. We’ve all read or known women who’ve done everything legal to remove themselves from a threat.( Got a friend hiding now,2000 miles away from her life.) Only to be severely beaten or killed….if you know someone is going to kill you, if they say their going to kill you and your only protection is a piece of paper, what are your options?
I also won’t type online anything I think can be used against me at a later date. I use my real name w/ my user name
B) How are the laws/penal codes protecting her, if she has to uproot her life to remove herself from the threat. Also Laws are regional and cultural. Beating your wife or daughter is legal in many places of the world. Honor killings are legal. Is it possible there is a flaw in some of the worlds laws or even our laws..B wasn’t a statement or a position, it was a question
C,D…again it was a question for discussion. Why does she have to wait for the ambush?….How many murder suicides do we have a year…What are a persons options in those situations? How do you legally protect yourself . friends and love ones from their poor choices of lovers:D:
Its like the morality question of if knowing what you know now, would you have murdered Hitler if you had the chance. If she’s repaetedly threatened or beaten and murders him in his sleep is she protected. I mean she could remove herself from the threat…call the cops, but when he gets out the next day…maybe he kills the whole family….
I haven’t stated a position, just asking questions. I learn better with an open mind
on to your next batch of questions
Yes I read the contempt for LEO and roving bereaucrat lines and said in an earlier post that I got the attitude thing. But who doesn’t have contempt for the pencil pushers or those who espouse things without ever stepping into the line of fire. didn’t you register a touch of contempt for keyboard warriors. I stuck up for him simply because I thought he had valid points, but you jumped him pretty hard…if ya kill the discussion and don’t seek to understand first, we don’t learn anything and all the typing is masterbation. I kinda wanted to hear what he had to say. I like you Don, Think there is a lot of good stuff to learn from you, but we’ve had 2 conversations on here recently, both times I was really interested in what I could learn from them, both times I’ve felt like you’ve felt attacked, not sure why
You bring up a great point with if your not willing to familiarize your self with the Penal code section of your last post….Thats the same point I’ve pushed thru this thread….everyone should be familiar with them…I’m not and hoped the thread would help. Again questions, why aren’t they taught in schools, why aren’t they taught in M/A classes…I think they may be taught in handgun classes, but am not sure. Don’t own a gun.
My definition
Laws of nature: we’re preprogramed to survive. At our base level we will do anything to survive….lie, cheat, steal, charm, kill, hurt, ask, help, attack, ambush…..if you were trapped behind enemy lines, your behavior and your morality may be different than catching the bus in L.A..
Laws of Man: are laws made by man presumably to protect. Some protect the rich, some the stupid, some the bureaucrats, etc some are rightious, some are wrong..some are right at sometimes, wrong at others. some are made by people w/o a clue, others by people who get it, some are enforced by people who really want to help, others who could care less or worse
If it helps Don, I was looking into being a reserve officer, but some physical stuff got in the way
Hope this helps. BE well and safe….crap I gotta learn how to type
mike
Thanks for posting – be back a little later to reply.
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
Ok, just got in from my after-shift workout – gonna try to post while the endorphins are still flowing and I’m not so crabby…
quote unstpabl1:Geez Don, starting to feel like I’m in a fight here, mostly over things I’m not sure I’m that passionate about. If I wanted to fight, I’d go back to that biker bar and get that 100lbs back. Least I could count on great make-up sex after:woohoo:I don’t feel that we’re fighting – maybe that we’re not on the same page or even the same book…
I’m not that fancy with the quotes so its harder to play your game, but I’ll try…Again, I bumped this post to get more dialogue going on the actual laws of self defense…in short to learn more, not to espouse morality..I got nothing at stake here. I stated in my first post, Playing Devils advocate, I haven’t stated any position other than to push learning more and taking “personal responsibility”.
The position I got from you was seconding Kontact, that an individual can do ANYTHING he/she wants in order to protect him/herself – laws/rules be dammed. That the “laws of man” work against human “laws of survival”.
Simply relying on anyone else to take care of you is probably not a good plan. Oh yeah, and that in my expirience, been in a lot of martial art classes..I don’t remember much discussion on legalities. I bet because your a Force instructor, there is probably more discussion.
There IS way more discussion simply because I’m teaching LEOs…
I’ll answer all your questions
A) was not a specific incident, but a question on far she has to go to remove herself from the threat. We’ve all read or known women who’ve done everything legal to remove themselves from a threat.( Got a friend hiding now,2000 miles away from her life.) Only to be severely beaten or killed….if you know someone is going to kill you, if they say their going to kill you and your only protection is a piece of paper, what are your options?
It’s not just women who are at risk from abusive men – there are many different kinds of relationships that criminal threats may be involved with. A “piece of paper” is NOT and has NEVER been one’s “only protection”. Every “piece of paper” (i.e. emergency protective order, etal) I hand out comes with a caveat that it IS only a piece of paper – that it will NOT physically keep a BG away or protect you. What do YOU think YOUR options would be (and why would the “laws of man” prevent you from implementing some of those courses of action?).
I also won’t type online anything I think can be used against me at a later date. I use my real name w/ my user name
B) How are the laws/penal codes protecting her, if she has to uproot her life to remove herself from the threat. Also Laws are regional and cultural. Beating your wife or daughter is legal in many places of the world. Honor killings are legal. Is it possible there is a flaw in some of the worlds laws or even our laws..B wasn’t a statement or a position, it was a question
Let’s not go global just yet – we still need to address the topic on a local (limited) scale. If your life was seriously in danger, and uprooting could very well eliminate that threat, would you uproot or stay? Is it “fair” or “right” that a potential victim should have to uproot? Maybe, maybe not. Was staying worth dying for?
C,D…again it was a question for discussion. Why does she have to wait for the ambush?….How many murder suicides do we have a year…What are a persons options in those situations? How do you legally protect yourself . friends and love ones from their poor choices of lovers:D:
I dunno why – YOU were the one who basically said that she (the victim) had to wait and be ambushed… Why do you feel that way or why do you believe the “laws of man” would force a potential victim to stay and wait? What choices do you believe are prohibited by the “laws of man”?
Its like the morality question of if knowing what you know now, would you have murdered Hitler if you had the chance. If she’s repaetedly threatened or beaten and murders him in his sleep is she protected. I mean she could remove herself from the threat…call the cops, but when he gets out the next day…maybe he kills the whole family….
1. “murder” is a crime, perhaps you were thinking of “justifiable homicide”. IF someone kills someone else in their sleep (with a history of domestic violence as hypothesized), there is absolutely NO guarantee that he/she will be “protected”. He/she will be REAMED with questions such as why he/she didn’t call 911, why he/she didn’t just leave/run away, what the exigency was at that very moment, etc. IF you kill someone, it would behoove you to have more reason than something along the lines of “well, he/she might have done something tomorrow/later/in the near future/etc”.
I haven’t stated a position, just asking questions. I learn better with an open mind
You did state a position And you formed conclusions. I was just wondering where you were coming from…
on to your next batch of questions
Yes I read the contempt for LEO and roving bereaucrat lines and said in an earlier post that I got the attitude thing.
You may have read it, but IMO you certainly didn’t GET it… You’re not an LEO so I don’t expect you to get it. Trying not to toot my own horn or grandstand, lemme give you my opinion. LE and the military are the main things that stand between you and anarchy. There are NO other positions/careers/jobs/etc more important to a peaceful society than LE/military. We do what everyone in society should be doing except we are doing it full time. What we do for the most part allows everyone else to go about their daily lives and be productive members of society. We do what we can so others can also benefit our world by doing whatever it is they do best. There aren’t enough of us around, we don’t have crystal balls, and there are way too many scumbags in society so, yes, crime happens – but we continue to put our fingers in the leaky dam. Those who are ignorant and disrespectful like Kontact can KMA and take a flying leap.
But who doesn’t have contempt for the pencil pushers or those who espouse things without ever stepping into the line of fire. didn’t you register a touch of contempt for keyboard warriors.
Sure did – that’s how I view Kontact and his ilk.
I stuck up for him simply because I thought he had valid points, but you jumped him pretty hard…if ya kill the discussion and don’t seek to understand first, we don’t learn anything and all the typing is masterbation. I kinda wanted to hear what he had to say.
If he had merely wanted to discuss topics such as Machiavelli, ethical relativism, utilitarianism, deontological ethics, etc, that would have been fine. Since he chose to badmouth me and my fellow brothers and sisters, that ended any hopes of rational discourse with him. OTOH, you can still talk with him all you want.
I like you Don, Think there is a lot of good stuff to learn from you, but we’ve had 2 conversations on here recently, both times I was really interested in what I could learn from them, both times I’ve felt like you’ve felt attacked, not sure why
Information flows both ways and I learn from discussion as well. I don’t remember the other incident you mention and I’ll probably forget about this one in the near future too – Old Timer’s… Sometimes I’m a little more thin-skinned than other times. Sometimes I’m in a worse mood than other times. Sometimes I’ve got a little sand that needs to be washed out…
You bring up a great point with if your not willing to familiarize your self with the Penal code section of your last post….Thats the same point I’ve pushed thru this thread….everyone should be familiar with them…I’m not and hoped the thread would help. Again questions, why aren’t they taught in schools, why aren’t they taught in M/A classes…I think they may be taught in handgun classes, but am not sure. Don’t own a gun.
Are laws such as the CA penal code what you refer to as the “laws of man”? If so, and you admit that you aren’t that familiar with them, why would you conclude that they go against your “laws of survival”? I don’t know why they aren’t being taught – you’d have to bring that up with whomever it is putting together the curricula for those classes… If you own a gun, make sure you’re good with it, that you know when you can use it, that you’re mentally able to use it, and you can explain why you used it…
My definition
Laws of nature: we’re preprogramed to survive. At our base level we will do anything to survive….lie, cheat, steal, charm, kill, hurt, ask, help, attack, ambush…..if you were trapped behind enemy lines, your behavior and your morality may be different than catching the bus in L.A..
“Survive” is vague. “survive” can mean fighting off attackers intent on doing serious harm to or killing you, participating in mutual combat and trying to win, being barely able to keep from starving, freezing, etc; being able to pay the rent; being able to live debt free; being able to afford the BMW payments; being able to make the monthly alimony payments; living in a fashion/manner you’ve grown accustomed to; etc… War and Peace – apples and oranges. Different rules of engagement.
Laws of Man: are laws made by man presumably to protect. Some protect the rich, some the stupid, some the bureaucrats, etc some are rightious, some are wrong..some are right at sometimes, wrong at others. some are made by people w/o a clue, others by people who get it, some are enforced by people who really want to help, others who could care less or worse
Link to CA codes – http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html I have NO IDEA what the vast majority of them are. I have SOME idea of what the criminal ones are about. IMO, we have laws because too many people are selfish and irresponsible. The (criminal) laws in general are there to allow people in society to live their lives, be free, and pursue happiness ideally without the malicious interference of others. The vast majority of the criminal ones make sense to me – only I believe that punishments should on the whole be more swift and severe.
If it helps Don, I was looking into being a reserve officer, but some physical stuff got in the way
Doesn’t really hurt or help. You are who you are – a job title doesn’t make the man. I’ve got fellow department members that I absolutely have no respect for – in fact I despise a few (some should have never been sworn). And I’m not heaven’s gift to LE by any means either! As I tell hopefuls and never will be’s – you don’t have to be a cop to be a good person or a productive member of society. You can be a great father, husband, brother, uncle, son, boyfriend, worker, partner, employee, whatever the case may be (both sexes as well). Most of the time, I tell people to be a fireman – people like firemen…
Hope this helps. BE well and safe….crap I gotta learn how to type
mike
I appreciate you writing further. I don’t mind giving my individual opinions BUT, I haven’t stayed at a holiday inn express, I haven’t played a lawyer on TV, and I am NOT qualified to give expert legal advice. Not every criminal act gets filed in court, not every case winds up with a “fair” or “just” or “reasonable” verdict. If you want to hypothesize and discuss, let’s get more specific – every situation can be very unique and the totality of the circumstances can be different. If you are looking for concrete advice on a real specific situation, I would encourage you to contact your local district attorney’s office or criminal defense attorney’s office.
You be safe too.
Re: After you’ve used KM to defend yourself, do you report it or keep quiet?
quote Don:Ok, just got in from my after-shift workout – gonna try to post while the endorphins are still flowing and I’m not so crabby…I appreciate you writing further. I don’t mind giving my individual opinions BUT, I haven’t stayed at a holiday inn express, I haven’t played a lawyer on TV, and I am NOT qualified to give expert legal advice. Not every criminal act gets filed in court, not every case winds up with a “fair” or “just” or “reasonable” verdict. If you want to hypothesize and discuss, let’s get more specific – every situation can be very unique and the totality of the circumstances can be different. If you are looking for concrete advice on a real specific situation, I would encourage you to contact your local district attorney’s office or criminal defense attorney’s office.
You be safe too.
It be easier to talk to you if I could do the quote thing you do. I suck at typing and computers. i have however, played both lawyer and convict on tv
We’re way more on the same page than you think. Remember this discussion start as devils advocate. I’m not seconding Kontact, just didn’t read him as extreme as you did. I’m sure your more sensitive to it and probably more aware.. I got the rhetoric and attitude and posted that, but also saw other things worth discussion.
To be honest, I think at some point she has to attack and destroy, before he destroys her or worse like the Santa Claus murders here. Though, I’m not familiar with that case and prior behaviors. Defending never wins, well the Ravens did it once and the Bears, but with an offensive defense. thumbsupI’m sure their are women both convicted and freed for enacting this. The reason she waits for ambush is he gets out he decides to attack and she’s trying to be legal and in truth doesn’t want to hurt anyone, just wants to be left alone. So in my mind even if she buys a gun, in order to be self defense she has to wait for his ambush/ attack.
Don’t know about the uprooting thing. Possibly and probably depending on the scale. Who’d I piss off as in witness protection. But I have a life here and a job that I like, though I’m brokerofl2 I’d like to say I wouldn’t let anyone deny my freedom to live where I want. Isn’t that the plot of almost every western movie. Besides in my friends instance he knows she went back to her family. So she gives up her career and has to give up her family now too. She was advised to buy a gun but I’m not sure by whom. Why do I have to uproot we have laws;):
Yeah I get it: Cause everything you wrote about in the paragraph about me not understanding what Military and LE do, I agree with, passionately. I’ve seen what happens when it breaks down,,LA riots,earthquakes and was under martial law for a week in the 60’s.
Be well
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
