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Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
I don’t think situational awareness would have helped in this situation. You see some teen walking fast, maybe even looking nervous and carrying a sweatshirt? That’s the tip-off? I probably would have thought it was a skateboard if there was any shape to the sweatshirt.
The real failure here seems to be the state in thinking this kid was ready for release. He had threatened to kill his stepmother and was made a ward of the state for it.
It’s a tragic story, but for me it amounts to some wacko taking advantage of the liberties we have in America and using it to kill. Why do they do it? I think the media hype following such events contributes to the deranged mindset in thinking they’ll be famous and finally be understood.
It’s not enough to report the news, media makes it seem necessary to interview anyone and everyone who is crying… whether they had anything to do with the story or not. It’s all about keeping people glued to the channel. And the next Future Wackos of America is waiting in the shadows, knowing his whole message could be put in the spotlight and he’d finally “be important” if he could only get the courage to pull a trigger. Instant gratification and a way to “teach everyone” they messed with the wrong person.
As a kid and into his first years as an adult, this killer was in the system for his violent tendencies. I’ll bet he walked out of the half-way house with all his freedoms intact… including the ability to purchase a rifle. As much as I’m in favor of upholding the 2nd Amendment, I’ve never understood the resistance to better background checks for all weapons. Maybe this guy borrowed the rifle and BG checks wouldn’t have helped here, I don’t know. It’s just too bad Mr Horn from Texas wasn’t there with his shotgun.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
Giantkiller, the news said he was on the third floor of the mall, not on a roof.
vwr32, although I agree with all you said, I hardly think a teenager would carry a skateboard wrapped up in a sweatshirt. (I do get your point that it could have been anything wrapped up in the sweatshirt.)
I think everyone is right on here. Awareness of your surroundings is most important when it comes to self defense and survival.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
KravMD… I’m not talking about fully relying on security guards, but there is a reason why they are in place. I’m just saying that they should be trained profesionals, not teens needing seasonal work. The alternative would be to have police or national guard patroling these areas and I don’t think that’s going to happen anytime soon.
VWR… I definately agree with you that probably about 20 people dropped the ball with this kid and showed how much people pay attention. A couple of things though. First, he didn’t purchace the weapon… He stole it from his step dad (according to the news… take from that what you will). Second, an AK-47 wrapped in a sweatshirt would look very akward and would have warranted at least a quick inspection by mall security guards.
You could go on for days about how many people screwed the pooch on this one… I was just trying to point out a few that I observed right off the bat.
J-
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote KMCat:The problem with airport security is all the PC-paralysis/Lawer-phobia causing the 80 year old grama’s with thier nail clippers to be a major concern instead of using awareness and common sense.I agree… It needs to be restructured, but at least they are taking some steps. Hell, I could file down my tooth brush or get one of those composite blade knives and do some real damage.
I went through airport security at least 8 times since the last time I had used my carry on as a range bag. They always held the damn bag up and searched through it, then passed it with a shrug. When I was coming back from Ft. Sill last month, the guy was maticulous and found about 20 shell casings that somehow got into the lining. Luckily he was cool about it, but it’s kinda scary that all those other screeners knew something was wrong and just didn’t want to deal with it.
J-
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
I think you raise an extremely valuable point up in the security gaurds and their training. For those of us with military training, personal and area security is drilled into our heads until it is second nature. When I first got out of the USMC I did private security for awhile and it was a complete joke. The test for a gaurd card I could have done in my sleep and most of the guys I worked with couldn’t stop a 5 year old. Most, as has been said, are there to scope out women and get a paycheck and nothing more. Even worse, I flew a day or two after 9/11 and when I went to the security check point I had to SHOW the security people how to wand someone correctly. I was standing in front of two heavy women with keys in my hand the first time they did it and when I explained I needed to be arms out with palms up they had no clue what I was talking about.
Down mades a great point about presenting a hard target deters this type of action. I think the reason security can’t present that hard target mentality is because of the PC mentality of society though.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
Downforlife, I think at even a slight distance, most people would be hard pressed to really identify what might be wrapped in a sweatshirt. It could be anything in the world being carried back into the mall for return. If he was really sneaky, he could even get a large gift box and walk right past security. You said he stole the gun from a relative, which is disturbing. His family KNEW his potential and more care could have been used in trusting him in an environment where firearms are present.
Side note: There’s a sporting goods store attached to our mall. They sell weapons and there’s nothing preventing someone from buying one (and the shells), and walking right into the mall ready for action. A person could literally enter the mall empty handed and do the exact same thing as in recent events. Or enter with a pocket full of ammo and enough cash to buy a cheap shotgun.
And talk about missing the obvious, I bought my wife a compound bow 3 years ago at the sporting goods store mentioned above. The store didn’t have a bag large enough to fit it, so stapling a receipt around it sufficed (they don’t come in a box). It was xmas time, and I had to walk thru a crowded mall with a very obvious crossbow in one hand, and a bag with arrow shafts sticking out of it in the other. Nobody said a word to me, but to security’s credit I can’t remember if I ever saw any. I guess that’s good and bad.
quote Raneman:For those of us with military training, personal and area security is drilled into our heads until it is second nature.If it were a military operation to provide security, there’d be at least someone at each entrance because they have the manpower to pull off something like that. I think the major goal of mall security is parking lot safety, anti-theft from vehicles, and shoplifting. We’re talking about a couple people maybe driving around in “Mall Security” vehicles and monitoring dozens of video monitors. You could have the most highly trained ex-military expert providing security, and the first thing he’d (or she!) probably notice is they are there more for liability reasons than actual security.
It’s just not financially feasible for commercial america to provide the sheer amount of security needed to guarantee something like this won’t happen again. But that would change if they started losing money because people started shopping from the safety of their computer.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote vwr32:It was xmas time, and I had to walk thru a crowded mall with a very obvious crossbow in one hand, and a bag with arrow shafts sticking out of it in the other.Oops, compound bow.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
VWR… It’s probably paranoia (according to the Vet Center counselers anyways), but I am always extremely aware of my suroundings. If someone is carrying an oddly-shaped package or looking suspicious, I tend to keep an eye on them. I know that not everyone really knows what to look for, but a lot of times it’s rather obvious. I’ve even seen situations in combat where trained soldiers said to themselves “Naw… He wouldn’t be ballsy enough to walk right up to us with this shit… It must be a contractor or an IP (Iraqi police)” only to learn quickly that people know sometimes the best way to hide something is right out in the open. All I’m saying is that if people see something that seems off to them, let someone know. Worst thing that will happen is that you’ll look stupid. Would it have stopped this incident? Who knows? I’ve seen it stop potentialy deadly situations in the past and that’s why I am passionate about this issue.
As for it not being possible to beef up security to the point where it needs to be… Maybe not. Improvements can always be made though. If they would just enhance the training security guards go through, you wouldn’t have to pay them that much more. It’s not like you’re asking them to solve world hunger. Even making them take an extra class as a part of their certification would help. Things like this need to come in small steps because otherwise people won’t accept it.
That is a damn good point about the bow and bag of arrows you were carrying around the mall. I picked up a Mossberg 500 .12 guage shotgun with a pistol grip at a mall when I was stationed in NY (unfortunately it was stolen when I moved to L.A. :-/). After I bought it, I shopped for about an hour throughout the rest of the mall. I carried the street howitzer in a box in one hand. The other hand held a bag full of enough shotgun shells to wipe out the majority of the people in the mall and still have enough for the rinky-dink backwoods police department. If somebody (especialy someone who knows what they are doing) really wants to be an asshole and go on a shooting spree, they are going to be able to do it. I just think that ANYTHING that can be done to prevent even one of the incidents is well worth the time, money, or whatever else it takes.
J-
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
Downforlife76
When people go to security training they don’t pay much attention to their surroundings until something wakes them up. An instructor, that I know, has someone(I did this part) bring in the applications and tests and place them in the security guards hand and move on to the next security guard, until they are done passing them out. After about a minute or two of questions he would ask, “what did the person look like who handed you your application and test?”. I would say out of a class of 20 maybe 2 or 3 would notice. It happens in academies all over the world, police and security alike. Time on the job can’t be taught in a classroom. As well complacency sometimes is very hard to unteach. I’m sure you fully understand how things like this work and it’s not something you learn in a classroom. Sad enough to say, many of the security companies tell officers not to put themselves at risk(or the company), but to stand by and get a goos description for the police. It all comes down to liabilty. Also what can you expect from someone who is making more if they worked at Mc D’s.
On a side note:
If there is too much security at a mall people tend to think bad things about it. Down in south florida there are very few malls with more than a couple of security guards and they are usually in the parking lot, watching for car thieves.Sometimes it’s just pathetic.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
An AK? Has that been verified? The report I read said that he was handling an SKS the night before. An SKS is just a rifle. Even if it WAS an AK of some type, it still is very unlikely to have been a full auto weapon. Still just a rifle.
I love how every rifle is an AK-47. Any time I take mine out to show, people (who don’t shoot) assume it is the AK-47 and assume it is a machine gun. No, it’s a Romanian AK chambered in .223. <insert blank look> I then have to explain the difference.
Point is, the media is doing its part to worry people and send the wrong message. Why play up the “assault weapon” angle? I think it just scares people, and scared people just shut down. And give up, thinking it’s useless to try to fight back. Everyone here knows that is just a load of crap. If the opportunity presents itself, fight back! Don’t be brainwashed into thinking that the situation is hopeless because it’s a machine gun/the guy is bigger. It’s not necessarily a machine gun and big guys have weak spots, too.
I’m all for situational awareness. At the very least, people should start paying attention to their surroundings. I look at KM the same way I look at my carry gun: it’s there if I need it, but really, I want to avoid needing it.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
“Sad enough to say, many of the security companies tell officers not to put themselves at risk(or the company), but to stand by and get a goos description for the police.”
How true. Take Disneyworld for example. My wife and I are seasonal workers there. My neighbor works there part time in security. Since I study self defense, I asked him one day if they provided him any kind of defense training to protect himself or the guests at the park. He said NO. The if anything happened, all they were suppose to do was try to verbally calm the situation. Other than that, just observe, get discriptions of individuals, follow them, wait for police, etc. I said, damn, if someone is beating someone else up you mean you can’t (according to company policy) interject an defend the victom. He said, no and that he could loose his job if he did. How sad.
However, Security at the parks is very good at checking all and any bags, containers, diaper bags, camera cases, etc. before guests are allowed to enter the park.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
Oh, here is an email I received from a friend of mine. My friend is not one of the people in the email.
“Please keep these people in my home state in your prayers!
Lisa
Lisa’s sister wrote: This is from one of the many police officers that I
prepare taxes for.
So Sad!!!—–Original Message—–
From: Jeff Baker
Sent: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 9:46 am
Subject: Westroads Mall ShootingI’m getting an abundance of much appreciated e-mail and several phone
calls, so I decided to put out a quick note addressing what happened at
Westroads Mall and my involvement in the incident.
I’ve been a cop for twenty years, but nothing could have prepared me
for what I experienced yesterday afternoon.Myself and two of my officers were first to arrive at Von Maur. It was
surreal.Cordite hanging in the air.
Blood, bodies, and empties from the suspect’s rifle everywhere you
looked.People frozen and cowering under displays and in fitting rooms.
Abandoned baby strollers, ladies’ handbags, dropped cups of coffee and
Christmas shopping bags littering the floor throughout the mall.Alarms shrieking from speakers in the ceiling, “Emergency! Depart the
mall immediately!”Christmas music playing in the background.
And all the while, you’re searching, guns at the ready, certain the bad
guy is going to pop up from a clothing rack and kill one of you before
your buddies can react and fight back.Scan, drive forward a short distance with your fire team, pray. Repeat.
I will write more when I have time, but for now I’m back to work after
about three hours of broken sleep. Please pray for the victims and the
ever-widening branch of family, friends, neighbors, co-workers and
public safety personnel who will be forever impacted by this horrific
event.Jeff
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
I fully understand the reality of the situation. As I said before though, taking any steps in the right direction is a good thing… Especialy when these kinds of things keep happening. The public is bound to start accepting it one of these days.
As far as the “AK-47”, I think that I wrote that info was according to the news, which means they probably don’t know what it was. Either way…. SKS or AK… It should have been fairly noticeable.
J-
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote downforlife76:I fully understand the reality of the situation. As I said before though, taking any steps in the right direction is a good thing… Especialy when these kinds of things keep happening. The public is bound to start accepting it one of these days.As far as the “AK-47”, I think that I wrote that info was according to the news, which means they probably don’t know what it was. Either way…. SKS or AK… It should have been fairly noticeable.
J-
I thought maybe you had read more updated reports. I read some of the first ones, and they kept saying AK.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote BradM:“Sad enough to say, many of the security companies tell officers not to put themselves at risk(or the company), but to stand by and get a goos description for the police.”How true. Take Disneyworld for example. My wife and I are seasonal workers there. My neighbor works there part time in security. Since I study self defense, I asked him one day if they provided him any kind of defense training to protect himself or the guests at the park. He said NO. The if anything happened, all they were suppose to do was try to verbally calm the situation. Other than that, just observe, get discriptions of individuals, follow them, wait for police, etc. I said, damn, if someone is beating someone else up you mean you can’t (according to company policy) interject an defend the victom. He said, no and that he could loose his job if he did. How sad.
However, Security at the parks is very good at checking all and any bags, containers, diaper bags, camera cases, etc. before guests are allowed to enter the park.
There are quite a few layers of security there, and Disney has a HUGE vested interest in its public image. More than any mall in the world. I would never take my gun to the Park. I feel safer there than at the mall, that’s for sure.
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