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Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote Paragon:An AK? Has that been verified? The report I read said that he was handling an SKS the night before. An SKS is just a rifle. Even if it WAS an AK of some type, it still is very unlikely to have been a full auto weapon. Still just a rifle.Not sure how a semi-auto AK-47 is vastly different from an SKS. Both have bayonet attachment (at least the sks I had years ago did), and fire the same round (7.62×39). I always saw the sks as a poor man’s AK. Maybe I’m wrong?
Visually, they’re very close too imo (note the bayonet on the sks) http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/9/9c/350px-AK-47_and_SKS_DD-ST-85-01268.jpg
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
Honestly, I don’t have too much experience with the SKS. I think it’s probably the same difference between an M-4 or M-16 and an AR-15. No fully auto or 3 round burst respectively.
J-
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote vwr32:Not sure how a semi-auto AK-47 is vastly different from an SKS. Both have bayonet attachment (at least the sks I had years ago did), and fire the same round (7.62×39). I always saw the sks as a poor man’s AK. Maybe I’m wrong?Visually, they’re very close too imo (note the bayonet on the sks) http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/9/9c/350px-AK-47_and_SKS_DD-ST-85-01268.jpg
An SKS is a rifle with a longer stock. The AK has a slightly shorter stock and is not the best shoulder-mounted weapon. They are not vastly different, but the AK can be chambered for rounds other than the classic 7.62. The AK is meant to be full auto. The SKS is not.
The big difference is in peoples’ perception of them. When you say “AK-47” people think of a machine gun. They automatically think this is a true assault weapon. An SKS is a rifle, and doesn’t have that “evil” look about it that the AK has.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
There was one picture in the news of the guy exiting the elevator, aiming the rifle. Not sure if one could tell from the picture what kind of weapon it was, but it looked pretty big. Makes me want to practice rifle defenses.
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GiantkillerRe: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote Giant Killer:There was one picture in the news of the guy exiting the elevator, aiming the rifle. Not sure if one could tell from the picture what kind of weapon it was, but it looked pretty big. Makes me want to practice rifle defenses.Makes me want to start carrying around my pistol.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote Giant Killer:There was one picture in the news of the guy exiting the elevator, aiming the rifle. Not sure if one could tell from the picture what kind of weapon it was, but it looked pretty big. Makes me want to practice rifle defenses.________________
GiantkillerI think it was an AK-47. I wonder if the guy was so focused on looking for targets that he’d lose track of the close-in range. If someone happened to be up against the wall he probably wouldn’t have seen them, and they could have pounced.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote Giant Killer:There was one picture in the news of the guy exiting the elevator, aiming the rifle. Not sure if one could tell from the picture what kind of weapon it was, but it looked pretty big. Makes me want to practice rifle defenses.________________
GiantkillerI don’t think rifle defenses would have helped in this situation.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
Hey, I’m being quoted by everyone!! :):
I think if you would have been close to the elevator the guy came out of, a quick KM rifle redirection may have worked (unless he pulled the trigger right away, as soon as the door opened), whereas it would have been too late at that point to draw a gun. Also, if you would have been somewhat close to the attacker, but he would have been focused on shooting towards a different direction of the mall, it might have been possible to sneak up close enough for a rifle defense (basically third party rifle).
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GiantkillerRe: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote Giant Killer:Hey, I’m being quoted by everyone!! :):I think if you would have been close to the elevator the guy came out of, a quick KM rifle redirection may have worked (unless he pulled the trigger right away, as soon as the door opened), whereas it would have been too late at that point to draw a gun. Also, if you would have been somewhat close to the attacker, but he would have been focused on shooting towards a different direction of the mall, it might have been possible to sneak up close enough for a rifle defense (basically third party rifle).
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GiantkillerYou’ve been quoted again! I definately agree that if you were in the right spot and he didn’t notice you (which is a good possibility when you have anyone that is just going nuts… They’re not too worried about tactics), you would have a good chance at effectively using an unarmed defense against the attacker. Its definately worth while trying though… The dumb bastard is going to try to shoot everyone anyways. Still, I prefer the armed method to dealing with trash like this.
J-
P.S. Did you guys notice that the guy looks like an emo kid? Maybe that’s why he was so depressed. The suicide note was pathetic. “Now I’ll be famous!!!”. Yeah bud… the whole world thinks that you’re a special ed Charles Manson.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote Giant Killer:Hey, I’m being quoted by everyone!! :):I think if you would have been close to the elevator the guy came out of, a quick KM rifle redirection may have worked (unless he pulled the trigger right away, as soon as the door opened), whereas it would have been too late at that point to draw a gun. Also, if you would have been somewhat close to the attacker, but he would have been focused on shooting towards a different direction of the mall, it might have been possible to sneak up close enough for a rifle defense (basically third party rifle).
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GiantkillerDownforlife76, I agree with your post about the mall being a gun free zone. Luckily, media is starting to put two and two together. Here’s a clip from a Fox News article:
quote :Nebraska allows people to carry permitted concealed handguns, but it allows property owners, such as the Westroads Mall, to post signs banning permit holders from legally carrying guns on their property.The same was true for the attack at the Trolley Square Mall in Utah in February (a copy of the sign at the mall can be seen here). But again the media coverage ignored this fact. Possibly the ban there was even more noteworthy because the off-duty police officer who stopped the attack fortunately violated the ban by taking his gun in with him when he went shopping.
Yet even then, the officer “was at the opposite end and on a different floor of the convoluted Trolley Square complex when the shooting began. By the time he became aware of the shooting and managed to track down and confront Talovic [the killer], three minutes had elapsed.”
There are plenty of cases every year where permit holders stop what would have been multiple victim shootings every year, but they rarely receive any news coverage. Take a case this year in Memphis, where WBIR-TV reported a gunman started “firing a pistol beside a busy city street” and was stopped by two permit holders before anyone was harmed.
Un-freaking believable that off duty officers can’t carry weapons in these places. Consumers need to start a letter writing campaign stating they won’t shop in gun-free zones. Obviously, anyone willing to break the law by shooting people don’t care if they violate store policy by bringing weapons on the property. Idiots.
The final paragraph of the article sums it up well:
Most people understand that guns deter criminals. If a killer
were stalking your family, would you feel safer putting a sign
out front announcing, “This Home Is a Gun-Free Zone”?
But that is what the Westroads Mall did.Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
An off duty officer isn’t bound by a concealed weapons law, as long as they are within their jurisdiction. Some cities require you to carry off-duty and some don’t. Some states require different things from officers while they are off-duty. A concealed weapons permit is for civilians.
There has been a debate for years about Federal officers needing a permit in New York. I personally know of a situation that occured where a fed was pulled over an they wanted to put him in jail for carrying a concealed firearm in New York. They showed that it was during official duties and he was later sent a polite oops we’re sorry letter. Now the problem is you have alot of officers who are very cautious of carrying off-duty in certain places. If they travel outside of where they work they may be scrutenized differently by local law enforcement.
Also, those signs of no firearms. They run into a legal glitch in some states as well. Here the mall has to ask you to leave and then they can notify police. Then you may open a can of worms, but until that point you should be okay. Also, concealed means not in plain sight. So they shouldn’t even see it to question you. You may have to leave the Gold Desert Eagles at home, while shopping.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
I definitely think security guards should have guns and know how to use them, otherwise not much sense in having the guards.
About civilians with guns in that situation, depending on where they were when the shooting started it could have helped, but I’m wondering if it also could have led to confusion and maybe more casualties? Let’s say the bad guy starts shooting, then a civilian draws his gun and starts shooting from twenty feet away. He misses, hits others by accident, more screams and panic. Another guy with a gun hears the commotion, draws his own weapon and fires at the first civilian, erroneously thinking that he is the initial shooter. Then another guy draws his weapon and shoots at the second etc. Bullets flying everywhere in a crowded mall. When the cops get there, they don’t know who to take out, because there are so many people with guns. So, unless you are close enough to the initial shooter to get off an accurate shot and end it quickly, there could be some chaos and confusion there, potentially resulting in even more injuries.
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GiantkillerRe: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
Bullets WERE flying, Giantkiller. The bad guy killed two people at that church. Thank God that someone else had a gun. If that woman hadn’t been there, many more people would have died.
Google the term “Wolf, sheep and sheepdogs”. Read one of the best essays that you’ll ever see.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote stevetuna:Bullets WERE flying, Giantkiller. The bad guy killed two people at that church. Thank God that someone else had a gun. If that woman hadn’t been there, many more people would have died.Google the term “Wolf, sheep and sheepdogs”. Read one of the best essays that you’ll ever see.
Steve…. You’re talking about a different incident. Sadly, there were two massacres close enough together to get us confused. We were talking about the mall shooting. The woman with a gun was a security guard though (did a damn good job for not folding under pressure though, from the accounts I heard).
GK…. I know what you’re saying and you do have a really good point. I think that the risk of a civilian who had a gun and was in range of the attacker hitting another civilian by accident would be someone minimal. I don’t think anyone would be very close to that attacker for very long without either getting shot or taking the guy out by hand. I think that risk would be worth it… especialy since most places are very stingy about who they give permits to, so the civilian shooter would probably know what they were doing.
J-
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote Giant Killer:About civilians with guns in that situation, depending on where they were when the shooting started it could have helped, but I’m wondering if it also could have led to confusion and maybe more casualties?
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GiantkillerI think the guy at the mall stopped killing people when he ran out of easy targets. The guy at the church was stopped before that point by someone who had a gun handy.
Here’s some shooting stats collected from wikipedia. If I’m not mistaken, in each of these cases the shooting stops in one of two ways:
1. Gunman shoots himself when he’s done killing people.
2. Someone with a gun intervenes.Luby’s Cafeteria– October 16, 1991, in Killeen, Texas
killed 23 people, wounded another 20The Appalachian School of Law shooting– January 16, 2002
Three people were killed, three others were woundedColumbine High School April 20, 1999
killing 12 students and a teacher, wounding 23 othersCharles Joseph Whitman– University of Texas 1, 1966
killed 14 people, wounded 31 others (he also killed his mother and wife just before this)Amish school shooting October 2, 2006
killed five girls (aged 7ñ13)Red Lake High School March 21, 2005
killed seven people (he had also killed his grandfather and his grandfather’s girlfriend at his home before shooting at the school)Cleveland Elementary School Stockton, California on January 17, 1989
killing five children, wounding twenty-nine others and a teacher.Kent State Monday, May 4, 1970
Four students were killed, nine others woundedTrolley Square shooting February 12, 2007
five bystanders killed, wounded four others
(shooting halted by nearby police who killed the shooter)101 California Street Shootings– San Francisco, California 1, 1993
8 killed, six injuredEdmond, Oklahoma– August 20, 1986 (Postal Shooting)
14 employees killed, six woundedNew Life Church December 9, 2007
2 people killed, 3 wounded
(attack stopped by armed security guard)So the question to answer becomes: Is the possibility of accidental injury/death from people trying to defend themselves worse than allowing the gunman to carryout his plan until he runs out of ammo or targets?
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