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Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote vwr32:I know you’re saying you’d protect yourself for the sake of your family, and that’s admirable in and of itself. But I’d also be willing to bet if you actually found yourself in that situation, you might act differently. To each his own tho, I only have to live with my decisions… or lack thereof.Like GK and downforlife are saying, I have no allusions about my tactical proficiency with a handgun. It’s pretty much zip. It’s very expensive for a civilian to get that kind of training and practice it regularly. Most people with CHL’S don’t have it. So for me, the most likely scenario in such a confrontation is two poorly skilled shooters jumping around and blasting away at each other and hoping to get lucky — and he probably has more bullets.
For me (a civilian with some healthy paranoia and self-defense training) the best plan is to move my family and me from cover to cover when we can, and get away. It is possible that in doing so, I might find myself close enough to rush him. If he werenít aiming in our direction, then I would probably attack him. Compared with the handgun scenario, I think this would have a high probability of success, and would probably be a better bet than trying to run past him. After all, he canít shoot me or aim at anyone else while Iím holding the barrel of his rifle and trying to disarm him or carve him with my knife. But I definitely wouldn’t move toward him to seek out such a confrontation ñ too risky.
If you have the tactical proficiency to maneuver and put slugs in him without hitting bystanders while avoiding his fire, then hey your risk analysis will be different from mine. You could save a lot of lives before SWAT arrives, and the rest of us will be thankful you were there. bow1
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote antonyhewitt:Like GK and downforlife are saying, I have no allusions about my tactical proficiency with a handgun. It’s pretty much zip. It’s very expensive for a civilian to get that kind of training and practice it regularly. Most people with CHL’S don’t have it. So for me, the most likely scenario in such a confrontation is two poorly skilled shooters jumping around and blasting away at each other and hoping to get lucky — and he probably has more bullets.For me (a civilian with some healthy paranoia and self-defense training) the best plan is to move my family and me from cover to cover when we can, and get away. It is possible that in doing so, I might find myself close enough to rush him. If he werenít aiming in our direction, then I would probably attack him. Compared with the handgun scenario, I think this would have a high probability of success, and would probably be a better bet than trying to run past him. After all, he canít shoot me or aim at anyone else while Iím holding the barrel of his rifle and trying to disarm him or carve him with my knife. But I definitely wouldn’t move toward him to seek out such a confrontation ñ too risky.
If you have the tactical proficiency to maneuver and put slugs in him without hitting bystanders while avoiding his fire, then hey your risk analysis will be different from mine. You could save a lot of lives before SWAT arrives, and the rest of us will be thankful you were there. bow1
I think your tactical proficiency here is spot ..its called common sense. The best idea to get those you can out of harms way and keep you and your loved ones alive. I hate to be calous here but you priority is you and your own and trying to defuse the situation if possible, while noble, only puts you back into the chances of being hurt or killed.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
That’s a great story! Reminds me of one with m wife before we even started dating. We had hired her as a marketing consultant at my old company and one night after working late we went down into the parking lot together to go grab a late meal.
She was on her cell phone as always and two guys come out of no where, one starts to circle while the other goes to engage me in conversation. Just then shes says into the phone fairly loud “can you hang on a sec, my new boss is about to beat the sh1t out of a couple of guys who think they are going to mug us”
The look on the first guys face is comical as he goes to reach into his pocket to deploy whatever. So she says “Oh I wouldn’t do that, your just going to make him mad”
The other guy looks at his friend and says something to the effect they had made a mistake and should be going. The first guy mumbles something about how lucky we are yada yada.
Situation diffused.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote CJs Dad:Thatís a great story! Reminds me of one with m wife before we even started dating. We had hired her as a marketing consultant at my old company and one night after working late we went down into the parking lot together to go grab a late meal.She was on her cell phone as always and two guys come out of no where, one starts to circle while the other goes to engage me in conversation. Just then shes says into the phone fairly loud ìcan you hang on a sec, my new boss is about to beat the sh1t out of a couple of guys who think they are going to mug usî
The look on the first guys face is comical as he goes to reach into his pocket to deploy whatever. So she says ìOh I wouldnít do that, your just going to make him madî
The other guy looks at his friend and says something to the effect they had made a mistake and should be going. The first guy mumbles something about how lucky we are yada yada.
Situation diffused.
Dang – another great story:D:
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote Raneman:I think your tactical proficiency here is spot ..its called common sense. The best idea to get those you can out of harms way and keep you and your loved ones alive. I hate to be calous here but you priority is you and your own and trying to defuse the situation if possible, while noble, only puts you back into the chances of being hurt or killed.Yup, that’s what I was thinking too. Protect family first but I know unless I’d been doing this long enough (I haven’t), it’s hard to say till it happens to you whether you’d take that one more step and diffuse what’s happening. I don’t think it’s coward – it’s called common sense and knowing what you can do at the time.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote Raneman:I think your tactical proficiency here is spot ..its called common sense. The best idea to get those you can out of harms way and keep you and your loved ones alive. I hate to be calous here but you priority is you and your own and trying to defuse the situation if possible, while noble, only puts you back into the chances of being hurt or killed.Haha… I’m fairly un-social so when I do force myself into a mall or other similar public area, I’m usualy by myself. If you have your family with you, you definately have a responsibility to them to keep them safe. If you have a weapon and a good shot, however, the best way to do that might be to engage. If you can get your loved ones to a relitively safe area or you’re by yourself and you have the training and experience to deal with the situation, I think you have some sort of obligation to do what you can. Obviously, I’m not calling someone who would run the other way a coward, but some people are just willing to go above and beyond and make that sacrifice.
Then again, I have never been attacked by a psycho with an AK when I wasn’t mentaly prepared for that kind of attack. I might be trampling old ladies on my way to the exit. Who knows?
J-
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote Raneman:I hate to be calous here but you priority is you and your own and trying to defuse the situation if possible, while noble, only puts you back into the chances of being hurt or killed.Sorry, I just don’t subscribe to the “save yourself” or “don’t get involved” response if you’re in a position to help others. Accident scenes, house fires, crimes… you might find yourself in a position where you are the first person on the scene; to *be* that person who could make a difference even though it might mean putting yourself in harms way to do so. A little bit of the “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” saying goes a long way in this discussion.
Common sense should tell you not to crowd, or complicate, a situation for EMS people. I’m not saying you should “urban ninja” your way across the mall while in the line of fire or run past the police to help out at an emergency. Obviously common sense should prevail. If I happen to be a potential victim when a shooting rampage begins, if I’ve found cover, if I’ve identified the shooter, if have a gun and can return fire… I would find it hard to look at myself in the mirror the rest of my life knowing X number of people died after I made the decision to save myself. Maybe I’m alone in that philosophy, that’s ok too.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
We all hope that’s the way we’re going to react, be the big heroes that save the day, but who knows what will happen in a real situation? As downforlife says, maybe you’ll end up trampling old ladies… Hopefully not, but it’s always easy to say sitting safely at the computer desk, just letting your imagination run wild.
CJ’s Dad, no wonder you married her! You seem to be a perfect match! :):
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GiantkillerRe: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote vwr32:Sorry, I just don’t subscribe to the “save yourself” or “don’t get involved” response if you’re in a position to help others. Accident scenes, house fires, crimes… you might find yourself in a position where you are the first person on the scene; to *be* that person who could make a difference even though it might mean putting yourself in harms way to do so. A little bit of the “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” saying goes a long way in this discussion.Common sense should tell you not to crowd, or complicate, a situation for EMS people. I’m not saying you should “urban ninja” your way across the mall while in the line of fire or run past the police to help out at an emergency. Obviously common sense should prevail. If I happen to be a potential victim when a shooting rampage begins, if I’ve found cover, if I’ve identified the shooter, if have a gun and can return fire… I would find it hard to look at myself in the mirror the rest of my life knowing X number of people died after I made the decision to save myself. Maybe I’m alone in that philosophy, that’s ok too.
I completely agree and in no sense of my wording did I say you shouldn’t help out if you can. I can’t tell you how many times I have stopped at accident scenes to pull people out of cars, administer first aid/cpr, etc. I was making the point personal safety and those of your loved ones comes first. I was using the assumption of being anarmed and not in the capacity to stop that type of rampage. If I had a gun, my first priority would still be to get my loved ones to safety then try to assist if possible, if that means returning fire then so be it. Common sense prevails here. Then again my PTS might act up lol.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote antonyhewitt:Raneman, thatís a great story; I hope I would handle that situation just like that. Your g/f may make fun of you, but I bet she was proud of you that day.Itís not paranoid to think about and prepare for bad things that could happen, its called insurance.
Honestly, if it would have been 10 years ago after I got out of the USMC I probably would have ended up in jail for beating them to a pulp for disresecting my g/f. Thankfully, I am older and wiser.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote Raneman:I completely agree and in no sense of my wording did I say you shouldn’t help out if you can. I can’t tell you how many times I have stopped at accident scenes to pull people out of cars, administer first aid/cpr, etc. I was making the point personal safety and those of your loved ones comes first. I was using the assumption of being anarmed and not in the capacity to stop that type of rampage. If I had a gun, my first priority would still be to get my loved ones to safety then try to assist if possible, if that means returning fire then so be it. Common sense prevails here. Then again my PTS might act up lol.Much better. thumbsup
Maybe I was reading it wrong. It looked like u and antony were saying personal safety trumps social/moral sense of duty in all situations (paraphrasing: priority is you and your own, noble actions are too risky, even if you could return fire still getting the f out, etc). Agree with downforlife with immediately returning fire might be the best way to keep your family safe. Situation dictates the response. We’ve all seen vids where someone is in need of help, and nobody steps up.
Remember the car jacking vid the old guy gets beat up? I couldn’t be one of the onlookers who did nothing, even if I knew I’d lose the fight or might get seriously hurt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMstfjDiHjoRe: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote Raneman:Honestly, if it would have been 10 years ago after I got out of the USMC I probably would have ended up in jail for beating them to a pulp for disresecting my g/f. Thankfully, I am older and wiser.I’m kinda 50/50 now. I’m definately a lot better than when I first got back from this last tour, but I still lose my cool on people every now and again. My counseler at the Vet Center said he doesn’t wanna work with me too much because I have to go back to the sand box in 18-24.
J-
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote Raneman:Honestly, if it would have been 10 years ago after I got out of the USMC I probably would have ended up in jail for beating them to a pulp for disresecting my g/f. Thankfully, I am older and wiser.I wouldn’t have been able to keep my cool in that situation. I only heard about it and I’ve already mentally downed ‘biggun’ with a superman punch to his jaw when he got in your gf’s face. I could see where a few knees to his empty head as he was getting back up would also be appropriate.
I guess the “wiser” doesn’t always accompany the “older” lol.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
hehe yeah trust me it took A LOT of self control considering my g/f was involved. She thinks I am insane so it is all good. I bet it looked funny, a 5’6″ guy like myself standing up to 2 big guys lol.
down – hang in there man and be safe when you head back to play in the sand bro. Semper Fi. Just curious..did your therapist at the VA shake his head when you first met him and he saw you were a Marine lol. The first thing mine told me is “Why are you here..you were in the USMC..I can’t help you lol”
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
There appear to be several people with extensive military training posting what they would do during a mall shooting. While others have none. Some may have children, others not. I think everyone will have a different equation determining his or her action in such a situation. Also, each of us can think of 100’s of what if’s… that would affect our actions. What if it were three or more gunmen with AK’s and body armor, would you military folks still run back into the mall and engage them with your little .38? That’s kind of how I would feel engaging just one kid with an AK; my chances of success are much lower than yours.
I think the important thing for each of us to do is come up with a basic plan for when the sh** goes down, something the brain will hopefully turn too automatically and increase our chances of surviving.
One minute your Christmas shopping and sipping on your Starbucks the next, BANG, BANG people are getting shot. What do you do?
You military folks are obviously way ahead here as you already have that conditioning. I think we’ll all agree that standing there and screaming or running mindlessly for the nearest exit are very bad plans. Most of the other students in my Krav school don’t have military training, most don’t have a CHL, and most don’t pack a knife.
So I would like to here what others think is a good plan for everyone who just knows some Krav Maga?
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