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I have never like this defense. Some of you may recall the movie \”Enough\” with Jennifer Lopez, where she tries a couple of times to do the technique, then it works on the 3rd try.
It needs to be simpler, for example a one handed pluck with throat strike, along with a knee to groin is our preferred way.
THe technique as presented in the book will not work against a particularly strong attacker. Your head can get slammed against the wall if you don’t get out quick.
Additionally, if the defender manages to get one hand off, the attacker can go right into a triangle choke very easily IMHO.
With a push backwards, the technique will work, although we I would trap the top hand of the defender.
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I’m not sure a pluck would work well, because the wall is in the way and it might make it harder to properly execute it (your elbow(s) might slam into the wall).
I’ve actually done this defense in class against bigger attackers and it seemed to work fine, as long as you dip your shoulder down (as shown in the book, p124).
As far as the attacker turning it into a triangle choke (i assume you mean with his arms, not his legs), I suppose anything could happen, but she is trapping his arms while countering, then turns back toward him with his arm still trapped, making it harder for him to swing to her back and try to choke her.
How about the choke against the wall from the back? Do you do the same defense for that one?
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GiantkillerMy question is this…if a pluck probably won’t work against a wall, then why should it work when your back is on the ground, in terms of defense against choke from a full mount?
I’m with GK on this one. I’ve actually had students trying the one hand pluck against the wall, but under stress with a lot of intent behind the choke, they inevitably reverted to the turning defense–it’s just a stronger defense, which is relatively uninhibited by the wall.
The reason you can make this defense on the ground is because the attacker is basing on you, and his weight is committed forward and down. The explosiveness of the pluck, coupled with the bucking of the hips is sufficient enough to disrupt their base and create an opportunity for reversals, counters, etc.
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quote \”Ryan\:I’m with GK on this one. I’ve actually had students trying the one hand pluck against the wall, but under stress with a lot of intent behind the choke, they inevitably reverted to the turning defense–it’s just a stronger defense, which is relatively uninhibited by the wall.The reason you can make this defense on the ground is because the attacker is basing on you, and his weight is committed forward and down. The explosiveness of the pluck, coupled with the bucking of the hips is sufficient enough to disrupt their base and create an opportunity for reversals, counters, etc.
I do not see how it can be \” relatively uninhibited by the wall\”. I am pushing you back against the wall choking you, the wall make’s it more difficult for you to rotate. Without the wall, you can step back as the step allows your body and shoulders to rotate, relieving presurre on one hand for the trap.
If you are forcefully pushing me up by the throat and choking me, especially if there is a size disadvantage, I don’t see how a weaker defender, can execute that defense quick enough to avoid being choked.
The throat strike, eye gouge and knee to groin are always there.
As for the trapping of the hand while executing the defense as illustrated, in theory, yes, you could trap if you were strong enough to execute the rotation before you got choked and if the attacker didn’t pull his arm out, wrap it around your head and use the other and put you into a standing triangle choke which is worse.
Since I know what that defense would be, I am looking for the rotation to do exactly that.
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RELATIVELY uninhibited, as compared to the defense you describe. By lowering your shoulder, you make your upper body more narrow.
\”The throat strike, eye gouge and knee to groin are always there.\”
Sure, but none of them address the immediate danger, which is the hands on the throat. Striking without addressing the choke may cause more damage, if the attacker’s response is to tense up after being struck.
The triangle choke is a non-issue. First of all, if done correctly, it’s simply not there. The defender is moving out, while striking the entire time. Secondly, it would require knowledge and forethought, which is asking a lot of someone who chose to attack with a two hand choke. Finally, if we exclude one and two, I can make this argument about any technique: \”Well, if you do that, I’ll do this.\” If there’s a technique out there without a flaw or counter, I’d like to hear about it, because that’s the only thing I’ll train.
I did deal with the immediate threat, you will see in my original post that I pluck with one hand and counter to the throat with the other, along with knees and more. As you are plucking with one the one hand, you also trap that hand and stretch the attacker out while you attack his throat with your other hand, giving you plenty of room for knees and more counters.
\”as for if you do this I’ll do that\” you are correct, we can verbally say this and that, but the proof is in real life.
I have tried the defense as described and found that if I attack\\choke aggressively, it does not work.
Did you see the movie ENOUGH? She had to do it several times to get free, I don’t think the person being choked has that luxury if the choke is real, fingers behind the adam’s apples, etc….if they are massaging the neck like in the movies, perhaps. Much more time to play around.
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,In fact, in picture #2 of the technique, you see her left shoulder coming off the wall, facilitating the technique. If the attacker is aggressively pushing her against the wall, she can’t do that.
Furthermore, if the attacker were choking her with elbows bent, in close and tight, it would even be harder still.
One handed pluck, palm heel strike with the right hand between his arms or strike to throat between his arms is more practical, along with her left knee which happens to be right near his balls, IMHO.
I hesitate to enter the debate because my own bias is obvious. I will say that, IMHO, if the arms are very bent, the pluck is the more difficult one. The more the attacker’s elbows are bent, the more you have to pluck at a slightly backward angle. This becomes impossible when pressed against the wall.
(By the way, this is also the answer to Jeff’s question about choke on the ground; someone full mounted and choking you usually doesn’t behind their arms alot — their arms are relatively straight so they can put weight into the choke; this allows you to pluck a bit more sideways; the floor STILL gets in your way a bit, but you can relieve enough pressure, as Ryan says, so that the buck and roll works.)
As for power, we practice all the time with lots of power, and with the defender being slammed against the wall, and it works well for people large and small.
Also another way out of the choke against the wall from the front is a sideways sliding movement followed up by a round kick – The slide also can be accompanied by a pluck or a one handed pluck. Sliding to the side makes his choke weak enough to break free.
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quote \”Ryan\:Are you seriously referencing a movie to bolster your argument?I’ll agree to disagree.
It’s not an argument, only a discussion.
And I seriously, I have never done it in real life, nor have I practiced anything I ever talk about.
😉Like you said, we agree to disagree.
And John, although we may not agree on certain things, I appreciate the fact that you let me shoot the shit around here.
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Of course! Healthy debates about technique are what make us all better at what we do. If you ask people around me and the other top people in our organization, we are always discussing and debating techniques. Stupid to think we have \”the answer\” and we’re therefore done.
Argument, discussion, whatever…
\”And I seriously, I have never done it in real life, nor have I practiced anything I ever talk about.\”
I never questioned your training, your experience, or your background, so I’m not sure why you felt the need to interject this.
That said, I enjoy technique discussions, but in your initial post, you said, \”THe technique as presented in the book will not work against a particularly strong attacker.\” Pretty matter of fact, eh? Doesn’t really leave room for debate or discussion. Plus, when another side offers more for discussion, you tend to cherry pick and not address many of the items offered, which is your perogative, but again, not conducive to the growth of the discussion.
Regardless, healthy debate is good and necessary. The growth is in the discomfort. All the best.
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quote \”Ryan\:Argument, discussion, whatever…\”And I seriously, I have never done it in real life, nor have I practiced anything I ever talk about.\”
I never questioned your training, your experience, or your background, so I’m not sure why you felt the need to interject this.
That said, I enjoy technique discussions, but in your initial post, you said, \”THe technique as presented in the book will not work against a particularly strong attacker.\” Pretty matter of fact, eh? Doesn’t really leave room for debate or discussion. Plus, when another side offers more for discussion, you tend to cherry pick and not address many of the items offered, which is your perogative, but again, not conducive to the growth of the discussion.
Regardless, healthy debate is good and necessary. The growth is in the discomfort. All the best.
It was and still is my opinion, the fact that I brought the subject up here, means I am willing to debate doesn’t it?
It was meant to be a joke, hence the smiley face, which you omitted when you quoted me. 😉
I see where you say that dipping the shoulder creates room, but cannot see it working if someone has all their weight on you and their fingers trying to dislodge or rip your adam’s apple out.
Having said that, I will try to practice it on my wife, in hopes that she cannot escape. 😉 ‘
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