- This topic has 63 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 5 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
I find it interesting to discuss, especially because, in my opinion, it works so well. It’s always tricky to bring up anecdotal evidence, because every situation is different and we need to get a larger sampling to create valid statistics, but I’m going to do it anyway.
A couple of years ago I gave a private lesson to a woman who was afraid her ex-boyfriend was going to become violent. I only gave her one lesson before he did, in fact, attack her during an argument. She was late thirties, average size. He was big — not a giant, but a mid-thirties guy who lifted weights, etc. (I saw him once, afterward; he is certainly bigger than I). During the argument, he did, in fact, slam her against a wall. We had trained on this because he had done it once before. After one lesson, she did the technique in a real life situation and it worked perfectly. Loose teeth for him, safety for her.
As far as this technique goes, it’s all about dipping the shoulder. I know we keep coming back to the idea of a bigger, stronger opponent, but I’ve seen it work during hardcore training and in real life situations against bigger, stronger opponents.
Plantman, I’ve seen many people, and even had them tell me so, here, on this forum, that they weren’t here to debate, only tell their side. 🙄
Anyway, I do appreciate the discussion and civility with which it was conducted. Like John said, the lowering of the shoulder (think about making a \”U\” on the wall with your shoulder), is paramount to the defense. Also, think about taking your body out from in front of the attacker.
Finally, and this is just a bit of friendly advice, don’t make veiled threats against your wife on an internet forum. 😯 😆 😉
Later!
Hey John,
I hope the woman left the thug after that incident? Or maybe HE left HER… 🙂
Plantman,
The movie is just that, a movie. Choreographed ’til the last second. They probably thought it would be more dramatic to have her try several times, people in the theater thinking she wouldn’t get out, a national treasure like J-LO about to die!! Then she makes it after all, and the whole theater errupts in applause… That’s the thing about movies, people get shot, blown up, jump out of three story buildings and keep on running without a scratch, doesn’t necessarily translate to real life.
As John and Ryan were saying, the dip is really important. If you dip your shoulder, you won’t have to come off the wall and move your body/throat against his weight. Maybe you just haven’t practiced it enough? Do try it with your wife, if she turns blue, simply let go. 😉 But also try to have her do the pluck version with you going full strength, no cheating. 🙂
As for the attacker going to a triangle choke or anything else, he’d have to be quick and his mind already on the transition I believe. You said that you are always looking for a triangle from that position, when a person defends that way? Well, that’s probably because you know what he/she is going to do and you are ready to switch your attack to something else. A real attacker will be much more surprised by the defender’s actions and as soon as he realizes he has lost the choke, the arms are already coming down to trap and the counters are flying in his face.
Also, if he does try to go to another submission, that would mean that he would have to let go of the choke first, meaning he himself would remove the initial danger. If he lets go in the middle of your defense, you can then skip the rest of your movement, put your arms down right away and go to combatives, protecting against another type of attack.
For the one handed choke defense, don’t you have to blade you body slightly (shoulder on side where the pluck is being made goes back, the other shoulder comes forward, as shown on page 62 of the book)? So, I wonder if the wall wouldn’t impede your movement in that situation? Maybe you can do it, because you are bigger and don’t need as much momentum for your pluck to work, but for a smaller person, the wall could get in the way I believe.
KMSF,
Not sure I can picture this, so you simply take one step alongside the wall, so he loses his balance a bit, then you kick? Why round kick and not kick to the groin? To buckle his knees? Do you do anything at all to actually get the hands off your throat, or do you mostly rely on counterattacks for that defense?
Yes, these debates are fun! 😀
_________________
GiantkillerThis is one of those perfect techniques to try ìThe Giant Killer Testî or ìwill this work against a smaller personî
In fact when I initially read the first few posts in the thread my first thought was I wonder what GK would have to say. Not because she is a KM master but because at 5 ft nothing and 100 and nothing lbs I think she is a great measuring stick if the defense will work or not against a larger much stronger person.
I can honestly say I havenít found a KM technique yet that doesnít work for me easily but Iím on the opposite end of that spectrum from her. I also know theres 136lb instructor who uses me to demo all the time and they have no problems making me let go. As a large person who gets called on to do the attacking a lot I have yet to be able to restrain Jarrett Author or Junior let alone someone like Jarret Waldman all of which I have over 100lbs on.
I think explosiveness and aggression also play a huge part in many if not all of the KM attack defenses. If you try and muscle a pluck is significantly less effective then a burst of energy.
Remember some of our founding principles
Techniques must be able to work for the smallest person and from a disadvantage.
I feel this technique works well against me as presented in the book and taught at NTCís.
My .02
\”Not because she is a KM master…\” 😀 😆
I actually like the idea of a \”Giant Kiler test\”. Maybe we could make it mandatory for all new defenses… 🙂
By the way, one of the problems I sometimes have with all choke defenses in which the arm goes straight up into the air, is that I’m not very flexible in that direction and therefore find it hard to get the arm close enough to the neck. However, that’s not really a small person problem, in fact I think it happens more often to big guys with large shoulders.
_________________
GiantkillerRe:
quote \”Ryan\:Just for some perspective, I’m 5’7\”, 130 pounds. I have ZERO problems with this defense.Thats like Junior, hes 136.. cause we just weighed him for the fight the other night LOL
Giantkiller: Yes, just sliding to the side will make his grip weaker (it works on the premise that his weight is forward – you cant go forward or backward but to the side will pull his arms in a way that is weaker) but you can also pluck the hand away nearest the side you are sliding toward. I recomend the left side slide. Also a round kick is needed as your counter (we are talking krav which has an immediate counter ) since when you move like this you are a couple of feet to your left by then and a round house to his ribs or outer thigh works well since his arms are up. But a groin kick would be too straight and you aren’t in that position any more. Try it out – let me know if someone your size can do it well. PS> learned this from my Israeli instructor, it could be a variation but it was taught to me as krav- kind of all inclusive. I actually prefer the regular way better but this works also.
Reason I like the regular technique better is due to the counter of the #2 elbow which is more devastating and more of a fight ender than the kick which may give you time to get away but wont hurt him as much.
Ok, my wife is doing well.!
While I see where the technique will work sometimes,, I believe that the immediate throat\\knee attack is simpler and FOOLPROOF, works against any size attacker, etc…..difference of opinion.
As for the question of blading the shoulder when you perform it my way, when you pluck with one hand and strike the throat with your finger for example, straight shot, you are holding\\trapping the one hand you plucked as you push the throat(fingers firmly inserted)he will back off instantly.
Not saying that I am more advanced than the next guy, but I have been taught to look 2 steps ahead, the counter to the counter sort of thing.
Have a great day!
I’m still having a hard time visualizing the slide to the left and counter with a round kick technique. If my back is against the wall, I can probable slide to the left (or right), but I don’t see how I could chamber my leg to execute a round kick. Wouldn’t the wall prevent my from chambering for the kick? And I don’t think the kick would be powerful enough to have an impact. But, I’ve never tried it either.
There is room for a kick. Your slide actually gives you more space plus the space of his outstretched arms from the choke since he isn’t pressed up tight against you (thats a whole different scenario) . I mentioned the effectiveness of the kick in the earlier post where yes it works and you get away but he isn’t completely out of the fight either.
The kick is mainly directed at his ribs to try to knock the wind out of him a bit and hurt enough but the action takes you out of the choke (main thing) and gives you an immediate counter. You will most likely have to run or follow up with somthing else once you are free from the wall/choke- But try it out for yourself to see what I am talking about. John or Darren may have seen this before since both have trained in Israel- Hopefully one or both will chime in with an opinion.
Okay, so you slide, let’s say to the left, then pluck with your right, then kick? Or do slide and pluck come together? Is the pluck always done (you said I \”can\” pluck, so maybe it’s only an option)? If I don’t pluck, will the hands still come off my throat due to the slide alone? Do you take one or several steps to the side before the kick?
I can see how the slide would weaken his grip, but it seems you would have to be quick, or else he will just follow your motion. About the kick, I assume from the description that it’s a left kick (if I slide to my left)? Why not kick with the right, since it’s the closer leg? Could you do a right round house kick with the ball of your foot to the attacker’s groin from that angle? Or maybe a right front kick angled off to the side (depending on the position of the attacker’s legs)?
I wonder if you could also do this technique in conjunction with the rotating (arm in the air) technique. Seems his grip is weakened by your motion and there is less weight on you, because you are now off to the side. What if you did the rotating motion from that position, instead of giving the kick (if his hands are still around your throat)? If you did this, turning to the left would probably work best (since his hands are already bent in that direction if the initial slide was to the left). Of course, if you can get his hands off your throat with the sliding motion alone, turning would not be necessary.
It’s definitely interesting. I’ll try it out if we’ll work on it again. The regular pluck, too. In the end, everyone has to do what works best for them. If you can do the (regular) pluck, that might be the most instinctive and fastest thing you can do and the groin shot is right there. I also like the idea of pushing against the attacker’s throat, however, if he is a lot taller than me, has long arms and they are outstretched, I might not be able to reach with much force, at least not without blading my shoulders. If you are unable to do the pluck, you could always use the other methods as backup techniques, although, of course, you won’t have too much time if he is choking strongly. That’s one thing I like about the slide idea, it may relieve pressure quickly and will at least buy me some time (split seconds, not minutes of course).
_________________
Giantkiller
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
