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A related question, from a small person’s perspective:
In case the attacker is so strong, he is able to pick me off the ground before (or after) slamming me into the wall, so that he is now choking me, but my feet are in the air, can I still do either the rotating or the pluck techniques? I probably couldn’t slide to the side, even if I tried to push myself off the wall. I may be able to drop my shoulder, but not sure how well I could rotate. Pluck may work best. I could also kick him in the groin first, hoping that action will cause him to drop me, although that may not be certain (even if he scoots back his hips, his weight might continue to press forward and pin me there).
Oh, and for the regular (feet on the ground) technique. Plantman, why would you do a one-handed pluck instead of a two handed one? Or would you consider both options?
Glad your wife’s okay… 🙂
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GiantkillerSomeone is overthinking this simple move. 😉 Ok, to answer your questions- The slide is to Your Left… it’s a quick burst… your kick is with your RIGHT foot not your left..(don’t know why you thought that) you are kicking him in his LEFT side ribs as you burst out to the side. IF you pluck a hand away you use your LEFT hand against his right to help with pulling it away as you go sideways. As a smaller person you probably would use the pluck to help. Or even a chop to his wrist ( your left hand blade chopping against his right wrist Hard to make him lose his grip as you burst)
ps. if you are left handed the slide would be to the right because your strong foot would then be your left. Hope this helps.
If you were raised up in the air the sideways burst sliding against the wall won’t work but the rotating arm still could I would think (never tried it this way since I’m not a small person- Possibly a knee to his chest since you would be high up in that scenario to create space would work. Then twisting and dropping trapping then the elbow… yeah, it could work.
Silly question but wouldnít you be jammed a little? I mean I totally can see your technique but it seems like there might not be enough space to get off a strong enough kick? Since your starting from a passive stance. And if there is enough space wouldnít a push kick be a better option? You could use your back against the wall as a brace to move the attacker off you then step down and follow with the round house?
Just tosin out ideas
Yeah, or maybe a kick to the groin could still be done, unless he is standing in an opposite fighting stance and his groin is blocked.
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GiantkillerI’ve read most of the posts in the current thread. Here is my 02.
If picked off the ground, the attacker is using both hands to hold you up there. Meaning you may be in the air, but you have, but are not limited to the following: hands free, elbows free, knees free, and feet free. You no doubt know several combatives using these elements.
As for getting off the wall, all of you have been taught to react quickly to any attack, yes? If that is the case, you will in your technique before the pressure comes to the choke. And if not the clock defense will still be applicable (techniques vs. strength)
If the elbows are bent passed a certain degree the strength of the choke lessens therefore giving the victim a great chance at an eyegouge with combatives (knees to groin).
As far as the slide and then roundkick: if you are kicking you are putting your own balance in peril, therefore I would think that keeping ones balance (both feet on the ground) is very important so as not to end up on the ground, fully mounted, with a gorilla sitting on your chest choking the livin’ shit out of you. 😕
John, your explaination is right on, we have tried both techniques to a large extent(using a small female against a tall attacker). When the attacker is tall and has long arms, a pluck will do little to change the dynamics of his choke. And that’s if the victim is strong enough to do the pluck in the first place.
OK I’m done!!
\” If picked off the ground, the attacker is using both hands to hold you up there.\”
Not necessarily in my case. 😆 Little old me might be pinned there with only one… 🙁
In KM we always try to address the danger first, so that’s why we try to get rid of the choke before (or at the same time) as countering. I also remember being told that kicking an attacker to the groin while he is still choking you might strengthen his choke (as a reaction to the pain, he might grip your neck even harder – sort of like biting a bullet). In that case, you’d be worse off, because it might make it even harder to get his hands off your throat. Not sure if that would apply to other counters as well. However, if you can’t get rid of the choke at all, you might as well give combatives, hoping to weaken him or maybe compel him to let go to defend himself, thereby releasing the choke.
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GiantkillerPlantman, you may have addressed this, and I just missed it, but what do you do for the same attack, from behind?
The defense as described in the book will work from behind, imo, better than the front.
The wall allows you to push off with one shoulder and rotate your shoulder into the defense.
I tried it again(from the front) last week against different people, and depending on their height and stature, were I choking them for real, they would have struggled to free themselves as described. That arm shooting up, then coming over, if the defender is really close in, arms bent, is difficult at times.
IMHO the one handed pluck and trap and throat strike is he simplest, most foolproof way from the front.
You accomplish 2 things immediately, you relieve pressure from the throat, and your throat strike, or eye gouge give you separation to counter with knees, palm heel strikes, etc….
The throat is always there, as are the eyes. IF there is even the slighest bit of hesitation using the method in the book, you are in trouble.
.02
The only problem I could see with the throat or eye strike is that if the person is taller and has long arms, keeping them straight, I might not be able to reach very well. But I would have to try it.
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GiantkillerRe: Choke from the front against wall……
From what I see, best way to put it is if it works for you, use it, if it doesn’t use what does. I’ve personally have seen several variations, one is aikido, where you reach across to grab the opposite wrist with your opposite hand and turn to a wrist lock…way to technical. The other is from karate, trap with your chin one hand and then do the arm swim, similar to KM but in a sense you assist in the choke. Ninjitsu teaches to jab the eyes prior to the swim move. The KM pluck is great but as stated depending on your agility the wall can hinder your pluck. The “swim” move is very basic, (that’s the whole point, isn’t it?) but effective for majority, anything is better than giving up.
Now how about a front wall choke with a knee or hip in your gut, seen that choke before? (got out of that one, how would you?)
Re: Choke from the front against wall……
One of my instructors is 5’3″, 112 pounds. I am 6′, 215 pounds. I am not a little guy. This question comes up often in class some big guy will say “there is no way a little person…blah,blah, blah….” She will have me literally in her to the wall. I have never…ever been able to keep her choked against the wall…her technique is spot on. My grip is too strong to pluck, blading and turning almost breaks my wrist… This is a moot argument to me.
Re: Choke from the front against wall……
We did this last night in a class I was assisting. The instructor against the wall with me doing the choking and 2 large guys pushing on my back as hard as they could. So you can imagine the force on the instructor’s throat.
My hand/wrist was tweaked for the rest of the night but I think he made his point.
Re: Choke from the front against wall……
Who was the instructor?
Knee against the body, I don’t know, seems like the “swimming” defense would still work, wouldn’t it?
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Giantkiller
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