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Giantkiller, mindset is also an important distinction between MMA’s and self defense. Fighting for you life and fighting for a belt are two very different motivators.
One of the things that turned me off to the traditional arts in the 90’s was the pervasive belief that their arts could easily deal with the \”new\” grappling brought by the Gracies. I would go to workout and bring up BJJ and hear, \”I’ll knock them out with a kick to the head\” or other such things. John brought up that Bas and Randy are incredible specimens and would handle themselves well in the street. I would go further and say that to trivalize someones abilities who spends time in a combat sport be it boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, or mma is dangerous. These people know how to strike and how to fight in pain. We shouldn’t pull the equivalent of \”I’ll kick them in the head\”.
Adding MMA to your program, teaches you how to deal with what they bring to the fight. It’s a smart move. I was at a Crossfit seminar this weekend and had the opportunity to talk with John Hackelman. He doesn’t train his guys to fight on the ground. He does bring in wrestlers to shoot on his guys so they become great at defending takedowns. He brings in BJJ guys and makes his guys learn to defend the mount and break the guard and get back to their feet. It’s a smart way to train.Re:
quote \”garddawg\:I would go further and say that to trivalize someones abilities who spends time in a combat sport be it boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, or mma is dangerous. These people know how to strike and how to fight in pain.Quite true.
\”Maybe we can get Bas and Amir to teach again? They could get us a little taste of the system.\”
They actually taught the morning component of the Instructor Training seminar last December at NTC. That was painful fun!
That was also the weekend Ryan tried to turn my skull into an accordion with his foot.
:pGarddawg: As you posted: \”I would go further and say that to trivalize someones abilities who spends time in a combat sport be it boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, or mma is dangerous. These people know how to strike and how to fight in pain. We shouldn’t pull the equivalent of \”I’ll kick them in the head\”.
I agree quite strongly.
The point I am making, is that many MMA moves do not seem to translate well to outside the ring. For instance, the world’s greatest grappler can have a criminal in a rear naked choke, perform it successfully, and be stabbed or bludgeoned by the criminal’s accomplice. This does not seem like a stretch, it seems pretty realistic to me.
It is my understanding that many of these MMA moves, like submissions, have been de-emphasized or removed from Krav Maga curriculum, for this very reason, they take too much *time* and require *singular focus* on one opponent. That seems to be very risky for this environment.
This is not to say that such a person could not \”handle\” themselves in the street, just that using moves designed for a \”safe\”, protected and supervised ring leaves one wide open in a chaotic and fast paced street situation.
Allright, maybe the article addresses much of this, and maybe my questions and concerns will be answered by it, but I’ve enjoyed reading what the posters have had to say this.
Sunny SD,
I agree with you. I would just flip the argument around. Have someone good put you in a traingle choke and see if you can get your knife out of your pocket. (its not easy) If you have an opponent in the top position who knows what they are doing, can you get away. It’s worth thinking about rather than just dismissing.Yikes, I did that once (at work) with a guy who was good at jujutso, and I haven’t been eager to repeat that in an uncontrolled environment 🙂
It wasn’t a triangle choke, it was something else where he was facing me and had his forearm across my trachea. I escaped by poking him in the eyes, but I try to avoid that type of thing now at work since I don’t want to blind a co-worker, and the choke just plain hurt. 😥
So, I will keep an open mind in regards to grappling moves in a street environment, but I am still a bit skeptical.
OK, when’s that article coming out ???!!
Amir and Bas teaching during instructor training in December? Damn! 🙁 Why is all the good stuff instructor’s only? 😥 Couldn’t we get them for everyone to enjoy? 😀
There’s no way to train for that hidden armed opponent you can’t see- if they stab or club you, there’s no training that can stop it- street, \”sport\” or otherwise. Also, if you can’t effectively deal with one opponent, there’s no way you can deal with two. MMA styles have been shown to work against one person.
\”There’s no way to train for that hidden armed opponent you can’t see- if they stab or club you, there’s no training that can stop it- street, \”sport\” or otherwise. Also, if you can’t effectively deal with one opponent, there’s no way you can deal with two. MMA styles have been shown to work against one person.\”
Sorry, but this is just wrong. The way you train for it is by training for it. You run scenario replications, you train against weapons, you train against multiples, you train against unknown variables, you pressure test and push the envelope. I’ve never seen any MMA training that did any of these things.
Precisely, you train for an unknown opponent by defending against what you can perceive and getting the heck out of there.
Submissions and most offensive grappling moves take too much time, that’s when you become vulnerable to an attacker’s accomplice.
Our instructor demonstrates this for us, when he sees some sparring where they’ve gone to the ground and are trying to submit each other, he very casually walks over with a training knife and deliberately stabs them.
They of course have no defense since their arms are locked up, you get the idea.
Just like Oneness said, people will gravitate towards what suits them more. I personally don’t see the value of creating a system that combines KM and grappling, for the above reason and others.
Of course, I could be completely wrong about Complete Combat since, I don’t even know what it is! But, that is my concern \”if\” it combines grappling with KM.
Looking at this from a psychological perspective, when someone attacks you there are usually 3 circumstances leading to that:
– They think they can beat you.
– Chemical \”courage\” (i.e. drunk, high, just ate a plateful of paint chips)
– They have friends.Most people won’t start a fight unless they feel strongly that they can win (this does not include the people who are motivated by anger and rage that supercedes logical thought).
That said, I can see a case for both perspectives. In a one on one fight, you want to be able to subdue your opponent including situations where they are not going to react as \”normal\” because of outside factors (*). And being able to subdue them may not allow grappling if there are friends ready to pounce when you get him down. Or it could be a combination of all three.
In my opinion, training should take those factors into account in scenarios. This is one of the reasons I am very glad I began Krav Maga.
(*) – Semi-humorous story: walking down Clark Street here in Chicago and watching a man who was obviously six sheets to the wind come stumbling out of The Cubby Bear. He falls into traffic, gets smacked by a car and I see his arm bend the wrong way and snap. He staggers up, staggers to the car who hit him and punches the windshield. The cops jumped on him at that point but, yeeesh, broken arm and hand and he was still fighting the cops.
Hey guys,
BTW, you shouldn’t assume that the exploration of new concepts between Krav Maga and mma will mean the development of a new system. MMA will always be more ring-oriented and KM will always be self-defense oriented.
The point of the article is to continually expand our knowledge without sacrificing our understanding of context. I.e., what can a defensive tactics system like KM learn from mma without losing sight of its mission? KM was a good system when I started but has refined itself considerably during the last 15+ years.
Our training and talks with mma fighters has been the next step.
Re:
quote \”Ryan\:\”There’s no way to train for that hidden armed opponent you can’t see- if they stab or club you, there’s no training that can stop it- street, \”sport\” or otherwise. Also, if you can’t effectively deal with one opponent, there’s no way you can deal with two. MMA styles have been shown to work against one person.\”Sorry, but this is just wrong. The way you train for it is by training for it. You run scenario replications, you train against weapons, you train against multiples, you train against unknown variables, you pressure test and push the envelope. I’ve never seen any MMA training that did any of these things.
Not only is there training for it…the training is actually quite interesting. Doing some punching drills with the possibility that someone has a hidden training knife definitely changes the way you defend and attack. And it’s helpful to play the role of an attacker too…because you think differently when you have the weapon. The more a person is exposed to, the better it is.
Excuse me for jumping in here but I saw the April Black Belt last night at the book store and read the article and thought it was very good. I see where both can benefit each other and I think things like this keep Krav on the cutting edge so to speak.
I had not picked up a BB magazine in probably 10 years and I was surprised at how much MMA was reresented in it. I don’t know if this is because of the cover article or what, but it does seem like American martial arts has evolved over the years.
Ten years ago or so I dabbled in Kempo but was not real excited about all the forms. I also took some Jeet kun do and really enjoyed it for about a year until my instructor had a tragedy and had to close his school.
Now that I’ve been taking Krav I remember what it was I liked so much about Jeet. No set forms!
I’m not sure about the attitudes that traditional martial arts have about Krav Maga but I would be hard pressed to exclude it from what is thought of as martial arts.
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