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Agreed, the 1 handed pluck provides a better defense against the head butt than the 2-handed pluck, which as JArcher points out almost seems to facilitate a head-butt.
As far as not having enough time to prevent a head butt, inasmuch as one can execute a defense, at all, the one handed pluck lands the counterstrike simultaneously with the pluck, so if you at least have time to grab the hand, then I don’t see how the the defense wouldn’t work that way. Perhaps John Whitman can follow up on his post.
If an assailant has gotten close enough to attack like this, and doesn’t telegraph their head butt at all (very rare with this strike, from what I’ve seen), then it’s like being surprised at very close range by a knife, you’re probably going to get hit.
DJinsd, describing the rear headlock escape a little better, like you said with the attacker’s right arm across your throat it’s: Turn head, eye strike, pluck, step diagonally out with right foot (not a big step, this blades your body toward the attacker), attack chin or solar plexus with left elbow, maintain control of attacker’s right hand while counterstriking, make a forward and diagonal step away with your left foot, execute back kicks as needed with your right or run.
Hope that’s a better description, have fun in class!
I agree with John on the headbutt–it happens too fast, and due to the range, it is rarely telegraphed.
I also don’t agree with the 2-handed pluck facilitating a headbutt. People who are struck in the groin (or to the groin) typically take their hips away, not simply bend forward.
At what point are you extricating your head from the hold? Are you just assuming that the grip will be loosened enough to do what you are describing? An elbow to the solar plexus needs a bit of distance to have any effect. I don’t see how you could possibly elbow them in the chin with your left elbow if they don’t let go. The thing that I like about the Krav defense that we use is that it does not assume that the attacker is going to let go. When we do the pluck (and we often aim for the eyes on the pluck, much to the peril of the attacking student if he/she is not paying attention), all we need is just enough space to slide the head out. Again, I’ll try it in class tonight but I’m not seeing this as a good option since it seems to rely on your attacker giving up his/her grip (which may certainly happen, but I don’t want to plan on that).
DJ
headlock from behind, you should use the two handed pluck. I don’t like the one handed because if he is strong one hand isn’t going to hold his arm against your chest. In my opinion what makes this work is you are going to use your body weight against his one arm. Headlock, attack eyes, pluck down with two hands holding enemies arm tightly against chest, use body weight to increase power of pluck, then use shoulder to create space, slip out of headlock, put enemies arm on his back or bring his arm up (his elbow upperward) twist and break arm, either way follow up with kick to head and knees
DJinsd: \”Are you just assuming that the grip will be loosened enough to do what you are describing? An elbow to the solar plexus needs a bit of distance to have any effect. I don’t see how you could possibly elbow them in the chin with your left elbow if they don’t let go.\”
When the right arm is across your throat, and you pluck (with both hands), step forward with your right foot, that’s turning your left shoulder into your opponent, with your left elbow either near or flush against their center body mass. You hang on to their wrist with your right hand and elbow their solar plexus or chin with your left. You hit their chin with a number 3 or 4 elbow depending on how their head is positioned.
The way the technique is presented in our class, if your opponent doesn’t let go, just keep hitting them!
I like this technique better than ducking under the arm, if I don’t create much room under their arm to move under, my head feels a bit \”sticky\” going through there, and if I fail there that I end up stuck in a vulnerable postition.
If you try this with your classmate(s) or instructor, and it doesn’t make sense, that’s probably my fault and I’m not describing it well. 🙂 Our class has readily adopted this as our preferred rear headlock escape although we still learn the under the arm technique.
Well, I don’t really have classmates as I’m the chief instructor, but I’m getting a better idea of the technique you are describing. I think the reason I’m finding this difficult to visualize is because I usually have the students that are attacking pull the victim back towards him/herself as well as choke/headlock them. That would make the step forward that you are describing much more difficult but does not really impede the \”back\” step of the original technique. I guess if the attacker did not pull the victim towards him/herself as they performed the headlock, then I can see stepping away from them as being a viable alternative but I’ve never really had a problem with the original technique since you can easily do the standard headlock escape if you get \”stuck\”. If it works for you then, by all means, keep doing it.
DJ
Thank you for your replies, DJ, attempting to describe the technique, and then considering your responses, helped me to learn both techniques better.
Ryan: \”I agree with John on the headbutt–it happens too fast, and due to the range, it is rarely telegraphed.\”
I tend to think that head butts are telegraphed, in that the attacker may tilt their head and body back to build momentum. If they’ve grabbed your shirt, or throat, then wind up for the attack, then there is enough time to counterattack this way, as the counterstrike occurs about when the other hand has plucked. You are defending the choke or shirt grab, and if it is instead a head butt this seems to defend both threats with a better, overall chance of success.
Anyway, I’ve appreciated the board’s responses to this, now I have to wonder, what is the official defense against the head butt?
I like this discussion! 😀
Quote SunnySD:
\”The instructors in my class claim that KM is very different than from 10 years ago. So, it would stand to reason that 10 years after the videos have been produced, they won’t look very much like what is taught in sanctioned classes.\”I have a problem with this reasoning. I can understand Krav Maga being considerably refined over the past decade due to exposure to mixed martial arts and the UFC, particularly in the areas of ground fighting and combatives. But to say that the techniques that deal with threats in the video \”will look very different 10 years from now\” is worrying to me.
Krav Maga is described as a practical and effective self-defence system. I would assume that back in the better days when Imi Sde-Or was still alive, most of the fundamental principles behind the defence techniques were already set in stone.
If the defence techniques will be substantially different a decade from now, then wouldn’t that be an admission that the older techniques, that have \”saved many military, LE, and civilian lives in the past\” are actually ineffective, and the principles behind them incorrect? If the techniques have already been tried and tested to be effective in the past, then how much more effective could any revised technique get?
I ask this because of the unfortunate political squabblings at the moment, which would make me very critical of any large changes in techniques in the future. I see the Krav Maga videos, and the book \”How to defend yourself against armed assault\” as harking back to simpler days when the founder was still alive and his vision was untainted. It would be terrible if any important principles were to become corrupted or sacrificed over trademark and territory rights. When you’re fighting for your life in a dark street, who the hell cares about trademarks?
Yeah, I guess I was getting too carried away there. 😳 I seem to have a far too pessimistic view of the future. I didn’t mean to hijack this thread with a different issue. Carry on! 😀
Ryan can you give me your perspective on this:
quote :So, John, would the 1-handed pluck be a good alternative if the simultaneous counterattack can’t be delivered with the front kick to the groin (for instance, if the guy who’s choking you is standing over a counter-top or some other obstacle that prohibits kicking)…Because, if it’s simply an equally good alternative, then doesn’t it just increase response time if someone were to find themselves choosing to do one over the other?
A different way to ask the same question is this-all other things being equal, which one fits more into the principles of Krav? Is there any evidence about a 2-hand pluck vs. a 1-hand pluck being more or less effective against an opponent who is muuch bigger, or any other factors like that?
I know you and Jimmo work a lot of fight psychology/reaction time/body-language aspects of self-defense…so I’d be interested to hear what you think about that.
Regarding these two defenses, I think one has to look at the situation. If I’m on gravel or wet grass, I’ll be less inclined to kick (since that act alone compromises your base by at least half, probably more.) However, the range of the attack (proximity and/or size of the attacker) may require a longer weapon (one should also consider physical ailments/injuries, as well as strengths and weaknesses.) Look, Hick’s Law says that reaction time is directly proportional to the number of options given, so while we want as few techniques as possible, the situation may call for something else.
Keep in mind also, that KM is an integrated system. You will see the one hand pluck on the ground when choked from the side, as well as for certain knife threats. The two hand pluck is also employed on the ground, when being choked while mounted.
I hope this answered your question. If not, ask again, and I’ll try to articulate better.
No…that was quite helpful.
To me it made sense with having the two, and though I guess I instinctively understood that both are effective and helpful in different situations, I was having a difficult time explaining that to my students who were asking. We constantly talk about having simple answers, having as few responses as possible, and then we go and teach two seperate techniques which are responses to the same attack.
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