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John,
When you say KM has \”refined itself considerably during the last 15+ years\”, could you elaborate more specifically on how it has done so? Just curious….
SunnySD,
On mixing grappling with KM, I still think it can be useful. No one is saying you have to try to get a guy in an armlock, just because you study BJJ. However, you do learn how to move on the ground, reverse the other person if need be and also how to get into an advantageous position and/or how to get back up. All useful skills for a self-defense situation. Also remember, MMA is not just grappling, you also learn how to strike and defend on the ground. Then you can add KM and maybe let one guy draw a weapon during the fight and try to use your combined KM and MMA skills to try and deal with it. That would be pretty cool training. 😀
Giantkiller,
RE changes in the system: I’ve posted some of this before, so it probably won’t be new to you, but…
The biggest changes certainly came in ground fighting. KM has always had a groundfighting component. Although we prefer to stay on our feet, we’ve always trained in basic groundfighting. However, after the advent of the UFC and the popularity of grappling, we had to improve and expand. We were seeing LE personnel get put into the guard by 16 year old suspects. More experienced grapplers were becoming more common. We made adjustments, and we continue to make adjustments, while staying within KM’s context.
Other changes were/are smaller, more like refinements. KM’s kicks have gotten much stronger since I started long ago. I wouldn’t say the technique has \”changed\” enormously, but our approach to round kicks was better by 1996 compared to 1991.
When I started, we did knife defenses always with a takedown. We still teach the takedown, but we often show the disarm prior to takedown because it’s more practical. Also, we always showed \”failure drills\” with knife, in which you defend and counter, then make distance, but IMHO we’ve improved our teaching methodology in this area over the years.
I could probably list others, but very rarely does a technique change entirely…most often we refine the movement, or refine the teaching methodology.
John:
Out of curiosity, what is the difference in approach to the kicks technique wise? Also what did you see as the advantages and disadvantages of the way kicks, especially round kicks were practiced in 1991 vs 1996?Again, thanks John for the opportunity to discuss the different issues in an \”open\” forum.
So in those \”failure drills\”, you would practice to do the initial defense, punch and counter, then make distance? I actually like training like that sometimes, to remember that moving back is always an option, in case the attacker goes for multiple stabs and it turns out to be hard to control the knife hand. Maybe better to make some distance and use kicks or even common objects if possible in that circumstance. Occasionally, we have worked on multiple stabs and thinking about it later I concluded that it might have been better to just step back, but since we often just talk about staying in close, it’s easy to forget about the possibility of making distance sometimes.
By the way, if we do change a technique, even slightly, would it be possible to either post the change here or at the NTC or just mention it in class? Otherwise it’s a little like in \”1984\” where the past has been erased… 😉
Read the article, I think it did a good job of describing the difference between MMA and defense systems like Krav, but I was disappointed since there was very little that was specific about actual changes or enhancements. I wanted to learn a bad#$$ new technique! No magic bullet, I guess, maybe just harder sparring in my future? ❓ 😀
I suppose I jumped to the conclusion that a new system was afoot, rather than the continual refinement and adjustment of KM, if not from real street experiences then from MMA, and that KM as a result would be \”watered down\” and be less effective on the street. From reading the article and the posts on this thread, I was thankfully wrong about that.
Like John Whitman said: \”BTW, you shouldn’t assume that the exploration of new concepts between Krav Maga and mma will mean the development of a new system. MMA will always be more ring-oriented and KM will always be self-defense oriented.\”
My question, why call it something new, why even give it a name, as in Complete Combat? Isn’t this cross training between KM and MMA just part of a normal enhancement cycle?
I’ve bought the magazine, but haven’t read the article yet, just quickly looked at it. One thing I’m wondering is, whether or not new classes will be added that teach this new system, or whether there will be changes in the way regular classes will be taught? How will this be implemented?
Giantkiller, as you said: \”One thing I’m wondering is, whether or not new classes will be added that teach this new system, or whether there will be changes in the way regular classes will be taught? How will this be implemented?\”
I would like to know, too, I couldn’t see anything specific that would be taught differently, at least not just from the article. Maybe escapes from submissions, or more intense full contact sparring?
Hopefully Mr. Whitman hears our questions and can provide some insights on this…
Hi, I’m new to this forum, but I’ve had the Krav Maga videos for a while. I have a question about Krav Maga being constantly refined. Are there any differences/alterations between any of the techniques shown in the videos, and Krav Maga as it is taught in it’s current form? If so, are they big differences?
Welcome!
I haven’t seen the videos, but a couple of recent updates where I train are: When defending against a front choke, an option, rather than 2 handed pluck with a kick/knee to the groin, instead do a 1 hand pluck then a heel strike to the chin or nose, preferably tilting the head back with the strike.
This update is meant to defend against a head butt when defending the choke.
Another change when defending against a rear headlock, rather than plucking, turning into and ducking under the assailants arm, instead you can pluck, turn into the opponent, elbow them in the solar plexus, throat or chin, then step away.
I haven’t seen the videos, but these techniques have been presented to our class as relatively recent updates, usually these updates have a little story behind them to explain how they came about.
The instructors in my class claim that KM is very different than from 10 years ago. So, it would stand to reason that 10 years after the videos have been produced, they won’t look very much like what is taught in sanctioned classes.
Re the one-handed pluck against a choke: we teach it as an alternative, but I have said many times that I think it is ridiculous to consider it a defense against a headbutt. If the attacker intends to headbutt, the headbutt is delivered long before your hand can come up to defend.
Re the headlock — we still make the defense and slide out. Delivering an elbow or groin strike is fine if you find yourself stuck, but usually you can slide out an deliver knees.
So, John, would the 1-handed pluck be a good alternative if the simultaneous counterattack can’t be delivered with the front kick to the groin (for instance, if the guy who’s choking you is standing over a counter-top or some other obstacle that prohibits kicking)…
Because, if it’s simply an equally good alternative, then doesn’t it just increase response time if someone were to find themselves choosing to do one over the other?
A different way to ask the same question is this-all other things being equal, which one fits more into the principles of Krav? Is there any evidence about a 2-hand pluck vs. a 1-hand pluck being more or less effective against an opponent who is muuch bigger, or any other factors like that?
RE: headlock from rear. Assuming the arm that is encircling your throat is the attackers right arm, do you mean that you are elbowing them with your right arm after you turn? I’m having a tough time visualizing that being easy. I could certainly see a groin strike with the right hand being feasible but I’m not seeing an elbow work as well. Perhaps I just have to see it plus I’d rather go the the dead side anyway. I’ll have to try that tomorrow when we have class………
DJ
Re:
quote \”KravMDjeff\:So, John, would the 1-handed pluck be a good alternative if the simultaneous counterattack can’t be delivered with the front kick to the groin (for instance, if the guy who’s choking you is standing over a counter-top or some other obstacle that prohibits kicking)…Because, if it’s simply an equally good alternative, then doesn’t it just increase response time if someone were to find themselves choosing to do one over the other?
A different way to ask the same question is this-all other things being equal, which one fits more into the principles of Krav? Is there any evidence about a 2-hand pluck vs. a 1-hand pluck being more or less effective against an opponent who is muuch bigger, or any other factors like that?
I think the preference of the two hand choke lies in the body’s reaction to a a choke threat, sending both hands to the source of the attack.
DJ
In our class I have seen the two handed pluck choke defense result in the attackers head coming forward to butt the defenders head, always accidently. It seems that the defender moves their head a bit forward while they pluck. At the sale time the force of the pluck pulls the attackers head forward and then the butt.
I like the one handed pluck with palm heel strike better. I just feel if I miss the pluck that the strike is going to get the message accross and make the second try at the pluck easier.
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