November 30, 2005 at 11:56 am #29049
My question (coming from England where there are few weapons firearms about), is Do terrorists/criminals recieve weapons retention training?
I attended an Israeli CQB course recently (not Krav Maga) and they showed different Gun disarms. The instructor running the course is very well known and has a well publicised pedigree re. Military and law enforcement. I dont mention the name as I dont want to open a political debate.
I spoke with the instructor at some length about the Krav Maga gun disarms and his reply was simply…\”try that on a trained person and youll probably die\”.
In practice he seemed correct, the weapon holder had been trained in gun retention and merely pulled the weapn back to their hip and fired.
Stepping out of the field of fire was of limited success.
The crux seemed to be that the krav disarms did not work if the person holding the weapon had weapon retention training.November 30, 2005 at 1:08 pm #41952ryanMember
What is the likelihood of a \”trained\” individual presenting the gun in a manner which allows for any sort of disarm?November 30, 2005 at 1:12 pm #41953
I guess I was considering situations where it may happen, for example kidnap or robbery when at some point the assailant may have to be close to you.November 30, 2005 at 10:17 pm #41964
So which gun defense was it? Gun from the front? We do burst in, assuming the attacker will pull the weapon back, but of course if the guy is trained it will be harder to stay out of the line of fire. Did he know what kind of defense you were going to do before he put the gun on you? In that case, he would have had an advantage and you would have lost the element of surprise that you would naturally have had in a real situation. Also, you didn’t really punch him, so he didn’t have to deal with the pain of the punch as he was trying to point the weapon back at you.November 30, 2005 at 10:26 pm #41965
He knew the technique, (bursting into gun from the front pushing to one side etc), countered it by pulling weapon back to hip and firing whilst pushing/striking to my throat etc to make distance..
I take your point re he knew what was coming but his disarms were exceptionally quick. In retrospect possibly relied on fine motor skills strongly, possiblt to strongly in time of stress.November 30, 2005 at 10:29 pm #41966chloeMember
Just out of curiousity, what was the gun disarm against a person who is trained in weapon retention.
ThanksNovember 30, 2005 at 11:40 pm #41967
I think he would have to be very alert to do that in a real situation. As you have said, he knew what was coming and you didn’t really punch him. In reality, as soon as he was pulling the gun back, you would have burst in and countered, which would have made it harder for him to hit you with his own strike (in reality, he would have been surprised by your defense and it might have taken him a moment to react). And if an attacker is really worried that the victim might grab the gun, I think Ryan is right, he wouldn’t get very close in the first place, or hold the gun further back, making a defense harder.
Also, if you keep your chin tucked, shoulders pulled up and the arm that is punching kind of covering your face as you burst in, you might be able to block a counter punch.December 1, 2005 at 8:28 am #41974
Yea points taken. The guy was a great martial artist, and yes probably knew what I was going to do. He asked us to try and take the weapon and knew many of us were KM instructors.I guess his point is that retracting the gun is a normal \”instincive\” reaction to a trained individual if in close.
My query was, and hence using the military/law enforcement forum are you guys normally trained in weapon retention skills? Is this common?December 1, 2005 at 1:06 pm #41976ryanMember
The Force Training Division does train in weapon retention.
The \”demonstration\” this guy did was in a vacuum–void of context, psychology, etc. It’s akin to a cheap parlor trick.December 1, 2005 at 9:54 pm #41996
Yep, I bet any defense could be defeated if you know what’s coming…December 3, 2005 at 4:04 am #42034brentwMember
Did you the two handed technique as well? Just for curiosity – what was his answer to weapon disarms?
BrentDecember 3, 2005 at 3:15 pm #42038jaerooMember
For military law enforcement/security, we learned pistol retention only when it’s holstered. No retention for pistol presented and no retention taught for long guns. However, there is some retention techniques for the baton. To compensate for lack of training in some of those areas mentioned, I learned through outside intruction as well as other sources (books/videos/magazines).December 4, 2005 at 9:59 am #42047
I think we do have some long gun/rifle retention techniques and also some for the gun being presented. I remember seeing Darren work on that once with some other instructors. He also showed us rifle retention techniques once, but it was a long time ago and I’ve forgotten them now. 🙁 Maybe we could work on them again sometime? 😀December 4, 2005 at 5:31 pm #42049bill-karnMember
KM Force Training DOES teach weapon retention for handgun out of the holster – live side, dead side, from the front and also on the ground (mount and guard). I’m don’t know if they still teach it in the basic instructor course anymore, but I’m pretty sure it’s still taught in some of the courses.December 4, 2005 at 10:57 pm #42050
I think that is actually interesting for civilians, too. Could be that you do a Krav Maga defense, disarm the gunman, pull the gun back, but he’s quick and tries to jump in and get it back before you are able to retreat. Then YOU might actually be holding the gun during the struggle and could use a gun retention technique.
Or you might draw your own gun on a burglar or so and he surprises you, gets a hold of the gun etc. Would be cool if we could work on these techniques sometime. 😀
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