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\”unless you call it chemotherapy.\”
Liver shots!!!
Sorry to hijack, but I wish I had a chance to buy Bas a liver shot in NC 😥 .
I can see that there’s a difference between urban, suburban and rural attitudes, and IMHO attitude is a huge factor in self-defense. Architecture and gender and lifestyle affect likely risks, too. In Alexandria where I live, women who live on the ground floor risk waking up with a strange man on top of them (it’s happened several times) because most apartments & houses don’t have bars on the windows. In DC most ground floor apartments have bars on the windows. But… those women are more at risk in the alleys where they park their cars (if they have them). In Alexandria we have parking lots and driveways. But then after a woman in an alley is knocked to the ground, she needs pretty much the same techniques that the woman with a stranger in her bed would need.
On the other hand, Quikymarts are everywhere, and the bad guys with guns seem to like those places.
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quote \”Giantkiller\:I guess it would be good, for the sake of the system, to at least be open to exchange ideas about techniques between the different organisations, so that it doesn’t happen that, sometime in the future, each organisation teaches something very different from what the other organisations are teaching. That could end up being very confusing.I totally agree with Giantkiller on that issue. What is more I thought it was the essence of the system to evolve as new threats and techniques came along; so not only does exchange of ideas will prevent any confusion, but it will also allow the system to evolve accordingly.
KMAA could learn from what is going on in Israel as much as Israel could learn from what is going on in the US. The system should just evolve naturally anywhere it is present.John,
In your post you say that exchanges have become thornier with other KM people, is it also the case with the IKMF? If so, why is it?
Soon we reach the point, when turns out:
1. The israelis should go the LA to learn the real krav maga
2. When it turnes out Krav Maga was actually created in LAUntill there is the highest ranked instructor in Israel, for me Israel is still the center of Krav Maga. And when I hear US instructors got a mail from Israel about correcting common and even possibly lethal mystakes, you John should say thank to those who are correcting you guys as they are way more experinced. (And even make good points about the correction…) IMHO. But respect is not an issue nowdays, I guess.
respect
I believe you are right about respect being important. There is a hierarchy of instruction. When I see one of the instructors that teach for me make a mistake, I take the instructor aside, discuss the correction, and then have them institute it. I do not go out to the floor and tell the students that the instructor is screwing up and I’ll be happy to \”set them straight\”. That way respect is maintained on all levels.
Just the way we do things in my school………….
Darryl Johnson
Dynamic Martial Arts, Inc.
http://www.dynamicma.netHey kmman,
I’ve done nothing but welcome you on this board, and I have been open and accepting of our differing opinions when we’ve talked in person and via email. I do not fault you your perspective, but it is limited.
Between the two of us, only I have heard both sides of the stories, been an eye witness to many of the events, and met others involved in KM since the early days.
Don’t presume to tell me who I should thank.
Also, I’ll make an effort to turn this into a constructive thread.
Eyal Yanilov, head of the IKMF and, according to him, \”the source\” of KM now that Imi is gone, sent an email around to all of our instructors. I think his reasons were political, but his stated reason was to criticize a technique.
(I should insert here that Darren has always had a lot of respect for Eyal’s knowledge and his thinking about the system.)
He sent some comments on Gun From Behind, all of which we teach exactly the same way as his description (despite his comments) with one exception: some time in the last year or so Eyal has decided to change the disarm from a full grip (thumb used as an opposing digit) to a monkey-like grip (thumb grabbing at same angle as the fingers).
(Those of you who’ve seen the videos and read the book Darren edited for Imi and Eyal will note that the technique change is fairly recent, since in those instructional guides the technique is done with a full grip.)
The reasoning for the change is that smaller-size weapons are harder to grab in a full grip.
Try it. See what you think. Let’s discuss the merits.
I actually purchased a small airsoft gun with a snubby barrel a while ago. I don’t find it hard to grip at all. I have small hands though so it could be just me.
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quote \”kmman\:Soon we reach the point, when turns out:
1. The israelis should go the LA to learn the real krav maga
2. When it turnes out Krav Maga was actually created in LAWow how did the thread get to that? Noone pretends that KM was created in LA or that Israelis should go to LA to learn the real KM. kmman aren’t you overreacting a little? Maybe I missed something (since I am quite new to the forum) but it did not seem that anyone disrespected anyone.
And I still believe that Israel could learn from what is going on in the US (or anywhere else where KM is practiced) as much as the US could learn of what is going on in Israel. Once again the system should evolve.
I find it curious that, in a system based on reality, a non-traditional MA, that someone would use rank as some measure of value and validity. 😕
Nonetheless, the handling of the whole matter was utterly classless and disrespectful. I think Darryl was right on, except that the goal wasn’t to help but to hurt.
Ryan,
I agree things can be different when it comes to situational awareness, pre-contact phase etc.
It’s just that we don’t actually practice these things (at least not at the NTC, maybe you do it differently at your school). The Krav Maga techniques that we practice all assume that you have already been attacked or threatened and now you will have to react to save your life. At that point, the techniques are all the same, no matter what the motivation of the attacker might be.
I haven’t been to Israel I have to confess, but I could imagine that the self-defense needs of civilians are generally similar to what they are here. Just because there is terrorism doesn’t mean that they can’t also be mugged, raped, beaten etc. Of course, they also have suicides bombings to worry about, but let’s face it, not much can be done against a guy, who is willing to blow himself up at the push of a button anyway.
So there are a certain number of Krav Maga techniques in the system and, if you should need to use them, they should work wherever you are. Situational awareness is very important, but is not really something we actively practice in the Krav Maga system.
Anyway, Eyal sending emails to KMAA instructors…. My oh my. That’s quite inappropriate in my opinion. If we wants to discuss a certain technique why doesn’t he just call John or Darren and discuss it in person? Or send an email to them? Sending emails to KMAA instructors without John and Darren’s knowledge isn’t very respectful I think. I’m sure Eyal wouldn’t like it either if John sent emails to their instructors in Europe and Israel, criticizing their techniques.
About the technique itself…. Interesting. Haven’t had a chance yet to try this out, but somehow I think I would prefer using the grip we currently use. It seems more secure to me. If you grab with the thumb on the other side (a ‘thumbless grip’ as they say in Jiu Jitsu), I think the possibility of accidently dropping it after having completed the disarm could increase, especially if you have small hands. I know that the reason to use a thumbless grip in general is that it will make it harder for the person you are grabbing to do a wrist release (or to release the weapon if you are grabbing it). In this case, once you have turned and secured the arm, he wouldn’t really be able to do a gun release from that position anyway, especially after you have given a couple of good counters. That leaves the stated reason of working better against a smaller weapon. Hmmm… I don’t know, one would have to try, but we have some shorter guns at the NTC and I think the original grip works just fine. At least it seemed to have worked for Imi…
But whatever grip is used, I wouldn’t call it a \”lethal mistake\”to use one grip or the other….
OK, I have fully unwadded my panties.
All I was really trying to say is that KM techniques are useful regardless of the environment and ANYWHERE can be as dangerous as anywhere else. The sicko that killed a family except for the little boy and girl was in a rural area. (The guy that later killed the little boy)
I am certainly not implying that KMAA should get approval from anywhere else before changing a technique or visa versa. Like John said, KMAA gets real time input on what is needed in the US but I do think the open exchange of ideas between the various KM organizations is a good idea.
For what it is worth, the civillian version in Israel is VERY simular to what is taught in the US.
JC
Wow I go away for a few days and come back to this?!?! Iím sorry I started this thread! All I wanted to know is how the different organizations share information so everybody is doing similar techniques. I was curious if a change is made in Israel how it makes its way out to us. After Johnís response it sounds like that isnít necessarily the case, however it is well known whatever changes the KMAA makes are official no mater what anyone else says.
Regarding gun from the back, I have tried the ìnew wayî to do the disarm. Some of the reasons are incase the gun is small like a .38 snub nose, or if the gun is ported. I find it easy to make the grip change and I agree with the reasoning. Its issues like these are why Iím somewhat concerned about the flow of information back and forth. Although I donít agree how Eyal posted the change, it should have been emailed to John or Darren. I did think that was disrespectful.
Take care everyone.
quote :At that point, the techniques are all the same, no matter what the motivation of the attacker might be.Really? So if your girlfriend is having a tantrum and she grabs your wrist to pull you away from staring at the nude dancers you will react the same way against the ex-con biker who grabs your wrist because he wants to take you to his friends…
I know I am exaggerating but the motives of the attacker do make a difference. Although sadly KM is mostly about giving technichal solutions to specific problems. There are differences in countries for example: The use of force and local laws vary greatly, the threats are different. In England if you are grabbed in a double handed lapel grab you are almost 100% likely to get a \”Irish kiss\” (headbutt) as a follow up.
Cultures differ, people differ, violence differ. Although those differences may be subtle they are there.
To claim that the only \”true\” KM can come from Israel is simply not true. Lets keep in mind that many techniques have been adopted into krav from other systems around the world. That is how the system originated!
As for the way KM can be improved in the US people think about Darrens contacts. I cannot think of many individuals who have at their fingertips so much information about what violence is like in todays America. When you add to this the amount of LE:s who practise the system I personally think that KMAA has enormous potential to change the system to suit the needs of the US citizens.Sure, intensity of counter attacks may vary depending on the situation. But that’s not really much of a change in technique. In both of those situations you could do a Krav Maga wrist release, just that you might want to also punch and kick the crazed biker if he is trying to abduct you.
In the end, I think there are a certain number of Krav Maga techniques, with specific counters (that could be left out, or done in a milder way if the situation permits). And those are generally the same (except for small differences now apparently emerging between the different organisations). Even if certain attacks may be more likely in certain areas, anything could happen, so ultimately you would want to be prepared for anything. Angry girlfriends and crazed bikers could potentially be anywhere.
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