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Hi John,
When I write here I am not representing IKMF in any way. Never done, never will. Just to make it clear.
You are wrong, you are not the only one who heard the story from both side. But this is not the issue.
While you claiming Eyal has changed the technique last year I tell you, I have never learned different way. His critisism also mentioned the grip of the attackers gun holding hand, which was bigger problem than the disarm itself. Let’s not forget this. You say, his reason was political. I say his reason was correcting what is wrong, as he feels responsible for the students life. You can disagree, though.
By the way the reason of the thumb position is not only with the possible problem with smaller guns. Read his mail again, if you have time. I still think you guys should say thank when Eyal is correcting anybody, also my assumption is you guys do not feel this way. When I am corrected by a higher level instructor – for reason – I say thank. Maybe I a old fashioned…
Anyway, if you wanna continoue this conversation private, you know my email address, you are always welcome to share your opinion with me.
Before we call Eyal’s version the NEW version, how about another option. It was THE version for quite a long time, and maybe it was changed in LA. Any chance?
kmman, check the book Eyal did with Imi (and Darren as technical advisor), then check the videos that Eyal came to the US and participated in just 5 years ago. Now, tell me who changed what, and when.
I still contend it’s not anyone on this side of the pond who needs a lesson in respect. If the goal was to help, why didn’t he just go to Darren with his \”concerns\”? 😕
Who defines krav maga?
I personally see that it is up to each individual instructor to pass on the system as best as he can but at the same time he must modify it to suit the needs of his students.
Although it might not be apparent Giantkiller even minor changes in locale and people may make some technique obsolete unless it is modified.
Just because the sytem was vreated in Israel it does not mean that they are the only voice of authority in the system.
Or do you really think that the Israeli know more about fighting in snow than we Finns do for example? 😆
Seriously we had to modify some techniques due to the fact that almost 3rd of the year our streets are slippery and people dress in winter clothes. Something that is probably not the case in Tel Aviv.
I personally think that the people who know most of the violence in the US most likely are US people right?In keeping with John’s desire to make this a constructive thread, I pose one question/criticism of Eyal’s NEW technique. Does it consist of wrapping the thumb around the weapon prior to striking the attacker with its barrel? (I have seen the offending e-mail, but didn’t read very far into it upon picking up its overly patronizing tone in the first few sentences.)
While the open grip is effective for leverage purposes, it leaves little to be desired for weapon retention particularly for students who do not have a strong grip. I would think that you would risk losing the weapon unless you emphasize a more secure grip. Then again, this starts to complicate the defense, and I’m sure Ryan would be more than happy to expand on Hick’s Law…
\”Then again, this starts to complicate the defense, and I’m sure Ryan would be more than happy to expand on Hick’s Law…\” 😆
Honestly, if this were a major problem, why not also make the change to gun from the front or gun to the side of the head or…? They should have the same \”problems\”, since the gun would be held by the assailant in the same manner, regardless of \”target area\”.
Kmman, how is this addressed?
Re:
quote \”Ville\:Who defines krav maga?
I personally see that it is up to each individual instructor to pass on the system as best as he can but at the same time he must modify it to suit the needs of his students.fully agree! that’s the draw of the system-it’s adaptable. it changes to fit the needs of the modern times. otherwise we’d be doing jumping spinning kicks to dislodge cavalry,like many TMAs. Every instructor and practitioner adds a little based on their experience and preference. For example, what if in Israel it is determined that groundfighting is useless since most fights there are always upright. Does that mean we blindly follow that? Similarly, how many submachine guns do most of american students see in their lifetime-NONE! In Israel they are a common site, as soldiers and settlers carry them every single day. With a limited training schedule, how much should a US student spend training subgun or grenade disarms vs. handgun and knife? So, the larger the system becomes, the more adaptations are bound to happen-in my opinion a good thing.
Just for the record, I never said in any of my posts that I think techniques should only be changed in Israel.
From a student’s point of view, ideally, I think there should be dialog between the different organisations. So, as in this case, let’s say Eyal wants to change something about a technique, he should call John or Darren about it, as well as the head instructors of other organisations (IKMA for example). Those head instructors should listen to his suggestion and be open to it (not dismiss it outright because he came up with it), try it, maybe even involve the students, tell them to try out both ways and get some feedback from them. Then maybe they could call Eyal again, discuss it, at some point they would make a decision on whether or not to change it. Ultimately, every organisation would have to decide what they want to do, but ideally it would be good if all organisations could come to an agreement on how exactly to do the technique, because otherwise, some time down the road, each version of Krav Maga will be different from one another, which probably wouldn’t be a good thing.
Since Krav Maga is an open system, I think technically anyone could make a suggestion about a technique, whether he is American, European or Israeli. Even a student could make a suggestion, tell his instructor, who might tell the head instructor and that person could then decide whether he wants to consider it and confer with the other organisations about it. But the individual lead instructors should be in contact with each other, not send sneaky emails to another organisation’s instructors, implying that their teachers have somehow taught them the wrong thing. By the way, can anyone post that email? Now that we’ve been talking so much about it, I’m kind of curious to read it.
Ville, I see what you are saying and agree that different circumstances might require different tactics. And I think we should practice all of the techniques under various circumstances, with a coat, without one, sitting down, standing up, with obstacles etc. Unfortunatly, we seldom do this. It’s always gun to the front, now defend. The stick is flying at you, now defend. You are in a headlock, now defend. We mostly just do the raw techniques and they are pretty much the same here or there. But I would actually love it if we worked some more on \”special circumstances\”, such as how to fight in different kinds of clothing, different environment, obstacles etc.
I actually don’t think the suggested change gives greater leverage to the disarm. It puts the grip/force closer to the fulcrum, which means less leverage.
I don’t think it’s necessarily bad, I just don’t see the reason for the change when the change doesn’t actually offer any improvement. We’ve had a number of civilians and LE agents use the technique in real situations and none have ever had any difficulty. We also train with various size weapons under all kinds of stress drills and never had trouble.
Ultimately, in this situation, you should only go for the weapon after you’ve neutralized the target with combatives, so any secure grip should work — if it doesn’t, continue combatives until he is softened up.
So what was the additional, \”bigger\” problem with the \”grip of the attacker’s gun holding hand\” kmman mentioned? Did Eyal change something about that part of the technique, too? Just wondering….
John,
If you go for the wrist, you have great chance to miss the whole hand. The leverage is only important untill the first hand – elbow, palm etc. – attack. Also the grip on the gun gives you help against small guns, guns with compendators etc. Breaking the gun down could generate problem when attacker pull the trigger – not on purpose – while you braking the gun down. Probably you will shoot yourslelf on the leg or other parts. Beleive it or not, it is a result of test also. And you have also red the Eyal’s mail, so I dont even know why do I explain to you the whole technique. Anyway…
Many of you mentioned Israelies should also learn from what happening in the US or any other countries around the World. True. They do.
I could be wrong, but I don’t think John was referring to that part of Eyal’s \”critique\”. We don’t \”go for the wrist\”, as Eyal said in the e-mail, but we go deep, then the arm slides to the wrist with counters.
The leverage John is referring to (I think) is actually on the gun when disarming (monkey grip vs. thumb grip.) I tried \”Eyal’s way\” this AM. I didn’t like it, at all. The leverage was not as strong, and retention was a real problem. Also, when attempting to use the weapon \”dry\”, I lost the gun more than once. If it works for you, great, but I certainly don’t see it as an improvement.
I would still like to know how this \”problem\” of smaller guns is addressed for gun from the front.
Most of the criticisms Eyal wrote in his letter were incorrect.
We don’t each to break the gun down — in fact it is part of the teaching methodology to discuss this danger.
We teach people to burst in to avoid missing the arm — this is a huge part of the teaching methodology.
Our instructors who received his email all called me and said \”What the f– is he talking about? We don’t do those things.\”
The only difference between us and Eyal (prior to his recent disarm change) is that we have always burst in deep and reached deep, then slid our catching arm back a little bit as a result of the rotation made on the opposite side with the elbow. This makes us trap closer to the wrist, which is a stronger trap. This difference is minor because we make an huge deal about bursting in.
The only thing pertinent in his email is the grip change in the disarm, a change which, as I said, is recent and which, in my opinion, doesn’t add much.
kmman, getting shot in the leg or any other body part isn’t an issue for this technique. The gun hand is locked into place by the defender’s shoulder and the defender stays completely out of the line of fire down to the detail of sliding the free hand down the locking arm while watching the attacker for any signs of continued fight and the possible need to go back to combatives.
And there’s a very important unanswered question out on the table: How is this very \”serious\” requirement for a technique change addressed in our other gun defenses? I’m still having problems visualizing how to do gun from the front with an open grip.
In regards to the technique that was \”critiqued\”, whenever I’ve trained at the NTC the instructor (who ever is was at that time) has AlWAYS strongly emphasized stepping deep to secure the arm. If you don’t, there is a good chance that the attacker will yank the gun back and cause you to miss the arm and therefore have no control of the weapon. We also emphasize it STRONGLY in my classes for the same reason. On another note, when we are training the gun defense in class, I find that if the student does not work to secure the wrist in subsequent follow ups, then that can sometimes allow the attacker to rotate the wrist and point the gun at the defender. I know this because I am often the attacker and as a student gets more confident with the technique, I will make it more and more difficult to do it \”clean\”. I have not yet tried the \”thumbless\” grip but I will give it an honest shot but I have to agree with some of the others here that it doesn’t make sense to change the grip with some techniques when an attacker holds the gun the same every time, regardless if it’s from the front, back or side.
Trying to find the silver lining in the clouds of political division,
Darryl Johnson
Chief Instructor
Dynamic Martial Arts, Inc.
http://www.dynamicma.net
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