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Re: Iki ?
they just seem overly complicated to me. krav seems to be a “low risk/high reward” system and those videos do not seem to fit that concept.
Re: Iki ?
The KM style I’ve been learning is based on IKI. I’m pretty sure it’s legit. According to the students that are in the military, many techniques we learn are often taught in MCMAP, which to me indicates some degree of legitimacy and practicality. As for the neck break, yes, we’re taught how to do it. But we’re also equipped with many other means of disengagement, and we’re encouraged to use those other means if possible, as it’s impossible to truly practice a neck break.
However, on the effectiveness of a neck break, I remember having a new student do the motion on me, and accidentally jerking my head through almost the entire motion. While it obviously didn’t kill me, it did hurt quite a bit and disorient me. Even if you don’t successfully break the neck, the technique could help you in a pinch. However, being of pragmatic mind, I’d prefer to drill with the knee or wrench the arm if I’m in a position that lends me the capability of attempting a neck break.
Edit: Also, my gym doesn’t even have belts for KM. Moshe came by the gym a while back, but I was unable to attend, so I didn’t see if he was giving out belts or not, but seeing as I’ve still not seen anyone wearing any, I’d say that’s not the case.
Re: Iki ?
Apparently, IKI’s Moshe Katz got wind of some of the comments made in this forum, so he blogged about Krav Maga lineage on his Web site.
Re: Iki ?
But nothing in that article addresses any of the issues talked about in this thread. The point is that he is not teaching Krav Maga a system designed by Imi Lichtenfeld and continued by his students.Yet he not only uses the name Krav Maga for his system but he also gives out rank in Krav Maga which he is not qualified to do. That is fraudlent behavior. Whether or not his system is fun to learn or is street practical,etc, is irrelevent to the discussion at hand. People are going to him thinking that they are learning Krav Maga but they are not..he even admits it in that article. People think they are getting rank in Krav Maga from him but the ranks he gives out are also bogus as he does not have the rank or lineage qualifications to do so. Like I said before…Itay Gil is a great warrior and his stuff is also probably great to learn….maybe Moshes is too. But call it what it is…not Krav Maga and stop giving out fake ranks. Make up your own system and rank accordingly. Just be honest.
Re: Iki ?
Just as a note, Moshe Katz is a known Kahanist (he all but admits to it on his website). I normally don’t bother with the politics of the Middle East when dealing with Krav Maga, but his ideology is absolutely revolting.
You can check it out here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahanism
http://www.your-krav-maga-expert.com/moshe-katz.html (he says his motivation to start training in Krav Maga was Meir Kahane’s exhortation.)
Re: Iki ?
quote KevinMack:But nothing in that article addresses any of the issues talked about in this thread. The point is that he is not teaching Krav Maga a system designed by Imi Lichtenfeld and continued by his students.Yet he not only uses the name Krav Maga for his system but he also gives out rank in Krav Maga which he is not qualified to do. That is fraudlent behavior. Whether or not his system is fun to learn or is street practical,etc, is irrelevent to the discussion at hand. People are going to him thinking that they are learning Krav Maga but they are not..he even admits it in that article. People think they are getting rank in Krav Maga from him but the ranks he gives out are also bogus as he does not have the rank or lineage qualifications to do so. Like I said before…Itay Gil is a great warrior and his stuff is also probably great to learn….maybe Moshes is too. But call it what it is…not Krav Maga and stop giving out fake ranks. Make up your own system and rank accordingly. Just be honest.+1…. Big +1
Re: Iki ?
Seek knowledge and understanding not a belt. Hell I am just a Blue belt by some people’s standards and a black belt by others. I have seen some bad ass black belts and some who suck quite frankly. When you make videos and post them on ther internet you are inviting all of the internet masters to pick apart everything that you do. So Moshe is teaching his brand and I am not sure what it is really. I agree with Kevin that many of the guys he named are not in fact teaching any recognizable form of Krav Maga yet they are giving out belts. Belts are nice to have but they rarely mean anything. Itay Gil is a real warrior there can be no doubt. He is not a jobnik like most of the ass clowns running around teaching seminars.
There are those who know because they have actually done that which they teach. Then there are those who learned in the dojo and have never really had to use any of their acquired skill in the street. They are merely module teaching clones who know very little and talk a whole lot. So you have to investigate these guys prior to training with them. The problem with most American Krav Maga instructors is that they have only studied Krav Maga from one organization or instructor. So they are more robot than they are instructor.
They criticize all that is not from “their organization” or “their teacher”. They do this because they are insecure. Instructors who lack the courage to learn from many sources are in my opinion inferior. They only want to train with an instructor who “was trained by Imi”. They want this because they think that somehow Imi’s knowledge will be transfered to them and in some respects his skill set too. Of course they are wrong. You see what most of these instructors don’t realize is that Imi gave us a beginning not an end. So to view all that did not come from Imi as “not Krav Maga” is wrong.
To view all that Imi left us as the only way and the best way misses the point of his teachings. Just as the great Bruce Lee said “If a man practices JKD exclusively, he is simply not with it”. If your instructor is not out seeking the answer so that he/she may encourage the same from his student, then more than likely he/she is a belt chasing martial artist.
Bottom line. If you are that irritated by the next goof ball that comes around showing moves and giving out belts, I say show up at one of his events train with the dude and if you are not satisfied call bull**** and challenge him right there on the spot. I’m from the old school. We have an open door policy in Las Vegas for this type of thing. My motto is anytime, any place and it’s going on youtube. Lol… If you are not willing to do that then stop yapping. These dudes will be exposed by their own b.s.-PSYOPS
Re: Iki ?
quote Psyops:*snip*I think the main issue so far is not that he’s teaching a form of Krav Maga unaffiliated with Imi. As mentioned previously, Itay Gil does the same thing, and nobody has questioned Mr. Gil’s qualifications or skills.
However, Moshe Katz’s system seems to be somewhat dubious technique-wise (judging by Ryan and Jeremy’s comments), and his business practices have been called into question. Itay Gil, despite being unaffiliated, hasn’t been accused of handing out black belts in exchange for cash. That’s the biggest issue we seem to have with IKI. If IKI was a more honest organization that remained unaffiliated, we’d have far less of a problem.
Re: Iki ?
There is a constant debate in Jeet Kune Do on what IS and what is NOT Jeet Kune Do. Is IT the JKD as taught by Bruce Lee? There is Original JKD and JKD Concepts which is a branch taught mainly by Dan Inosanto….no two people seem to agree.
In the end it is HOW you train that counts.
Having said that, It is pretty obvious that Krav Maga is a great marketing tool for schools and unfortunately there are schools that use it to draw adult crowds. There is a JKD school near me which doesn’t even teach JKD it teaches a bunch of different arts and calls it JKD. Now they hang the KMWW banner claiming to teack Krav Maga. They are licensed under KMWW and I can tell you for a fact they do not teach Krav Maga. I feel bad because the students think they get KM. So even within KMWW you get garbage sometimes…so its really HOW you train and hopefully your instructor is honest.
Re: Iki ?
quote yli:I think the main issue so far is not that he’s teaching a form of Krav Maga unaffiliated with Imi. As mentioned previously, Itay Gil does the same thing, and nobody has questioned Mr. Gil’s qualifications or skills.However, Moshe Katz’s system seems to be somewhat dubious technique-wise (judging by Ryan and Jeremy’s comments), and his business practices have been called into question. Itay Gil, despite being unaffiliated, hasn’t been accused of handing out black belts in exchange for cash. That’s the biggest issue we seem to have with IKI. If IKI was a more honest organization that remained unaffiliated, we’d have far less of a problem.
I train in Moshe Katz’s system. Some of it may or may not be bull****. I doubt I’d ever try his neck snapping techniques, as even if they worked, I don’t feel like going to prison for something that could’ve been avoided. However, the vast majority of what we learn is the stuff I see students of other KM branches practicing.
Re: Iki ?
quote Coda Vex:The “neck break” is not on any curriculum I’ve seen or mentioned in any seminar or training class, nor do I believe his intent was to promote neck breaking.I could envision situations where I’d consider using a neck break.Multiple attackers against yourself or you & your family would be one.If I was defending against a predator & saw my wife being attacked at the same time;I may not want to wait the extra time to completely
incapacitate my attacker with multiple kicks or whatever.Can I ignore the guy I’m dealing with,who still has some fight in him, to help my wife,knowing that he could be on me from behind to add to what his buddies would do to us.
I think that I’d take the legal risk & snap his neck,freeing me to help my family.
Re: Iki ?
To me, it’s not an issue of a legal risk, is an issue of feasibility. Am I really going to forego more tried and true techniques for the sake of one that is impossible to train, that I’ve never done and that likely the person teaching it to me has never done?
Re: Iki ?
Once again Psyops and I are on the same ideological page. From a macro viewpoint, the system used is just that. But the knowledge and skill set of the instructor is paramount when deciding who to train with. Notice I said who to train with and not what system to use. If you look back 30 yrs. or so (post-1981) the fine folks in Israel thought that Darrens belt was illegitiment. They thought that coming to Israel and training with a man in his advanced years for a couple of months didn’t warrant a Black Belt designation. This along with some financial woes that Imi was dealing with made this contention very heated.
I don’t discredit Darrens belt, or the KMWW system. I only discredit those that think their brand of Krav Maga is the only legit brand in the market. Some would then argue that KMWW does not cover ground thoroughly enough, and has not evolved with the way crimes are inflicted in this day and age. We all know that 80% of fights go to the ground. Then could the arguement be that we should teach ground in more of our curriculum?
I was first introduced to Krav in the early 80’s in Florida. It was as real then as it is now. I have worked with Amir, Darren, Nir Mamman, and some of the best operators out there(who cannot be named here). And for what it is worth, I found them all to bring alot to the table. And I’m a better man for it. I am older then most that will post here. My advice to you all is check out the Instructor AND the System to give a fair evaluation of the training you seek! And also know this, I have had my ups and downs with some in the KMWW system, but I will tell you that those individuals are not any longer in the KMWW system, thankfully. I find the system to be as legit as those formed many years ago in Israel. So if you are looking for good reality based training, find a good instructor and your training will be as good as you give!! this is simply my .02
Re: Iki ?
Ok, I’ll bite. How do we “all know that 80% of fights go to the ground”? What’s the source?
Look, I’m of the mindset that fighting is fighting, and if you want to control variables, hit first. If you don’t or aren’t able to hit first, you better know how to fight: striking, clinching, groundfighting, etc., but the stats that are thrown around to support one “way” or another are just BS in my opinion. I could easily say 99.9% of fights start standing, but what does that really mean?
Re: Iki ?
I wondered the same thing, a quick google search gave me http://jiujitsu365.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/do-most-fights-go-to-the-ground-research-i-conducted/ where someone analyzed 300 youtube videos of street fights and found “both fighters ended up on the ground in 42% of the fights analyzed. This percentage increased substantially (72%) when analyzed for at least one fighter going to the ground.” So, the 80% isn’t too far off, but for Krav if your opponent goes to the ground and you don’t it sounds like a good time to stomp and run.
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