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Re: Iki ?
Wait, so the argument is, the number is close, A) because someone studied youtube vids and B) because ONE fighter ended up on the ground more often than not? Um, ok.
Re: Iki ?
Again, I believe you should learn to FIGHT, which is not range specific, I just think these stats are BS.
Re: Iki ?
” If you look back 30 yrs. or so (post-1981) the fine folks in Israel thought that Darrens belt was illegitiment. They thought that coming to Israel and training with a man in his advanced years for a couple of months didn’t warrant a Black Belt designation. This along with some financial woes that Imi was dealing with made this contention very heated.”
This is bull****. If anyone ever said this or believed it than they know nothing about Darren or is training. Darren didnt go to Israel and train with Imi in his garage for a few weeks and get his black belt. He was one of a few select Americans who were given a scholarship to go through an intense KM instructors course. The course was 2 months…8hrs a day…6 days a week. The whole first week was dedicated to just 360 degree defense. By the end of the week my instructors arm was beyond black and blue. The training was that intense. The course was taught under Imi’s supervision but the main instructor was Eyal Yanilov and also Eli Avikzar and other top KM instructors. They lived and breathed KM every day for months with Imi and his top students training them harder then most Americans will ever train. He left the course as a green belt. Both Darren and my instructor went back to Israel the next summer for more intense training. Imi came to America along with Eli Avikzar and stayed at Darrens home. Darren had access to the best training ever and he took advantage of it. Both Imi and Eli(the founders of KM) considered Darren to be like a son and supported him as an instructor. I dont like everything KMWW has done but to think that Darren didnt train and earn his rank his total crap and whoever says that has no grasp of reality.
Re: Iki ?
For the record…I am not a member of KMWW or a student of Darren Levines but the fact is it also took a few years for Darren to earn his black belt so he didnt just write a check. To say that this is what the israelis believed is wrong as at that time as Darren was given his black belt and was trained by the top Israeli instructors. The only person who has ever made this statement in public is Yaron Lichtenstein and that guy is a loon. Darren got up to 3rd or 4th Dan under Imi and I believe Eyal Yanilov awarded him his 5th and 6th degrees
I have never heard his rank questioned by any legit source and to say or Imply that Imi awarded rank in exchange for money is a major insult to a very honorable gentleman.The 80 percent of fights end up on the ground” idea came from an LAPD study in the mid 80s. The study focused on fights that officers got into on the job so you have to realize that police officers are trying to restrain and/or cuff an individual are more likely to end up on the ground than a civilian fight. That stat was promulgated by Rorian Gracie to promoto Gracie Jiu Jitsu and doesnt have any relevance to civilian self defense.
Re: Iki ?
quote KevinMack:The 80 percent of fights end up on the ground” idea came from an LAPD study in the mid 80s. The study focused on fights that officers got into on the job so you have to realize that police officers are trying to restrain and/or cuff an individual are more likely to end up on the ground than a civilian fight. That stat was promulgated by Rorian Gracie to promoto Gracie Jiu Jitsu and doesnt have any relevance to civilian self defense.It was actually a little later than that, but it’s true. That stat directly reflects the fact that at least one of the participants (the Officer) purposely took the fight to the ground in order to take the suspect into custody. It is not a coincidence that UFC ref Big John was an LAPD tactics instructor for many years, there was tons of cross training in the early 90’s between the Gracies and the LAPD.
Re: Iki ?
Yes, I’m aware of the LAPD link to the “stats”, along with the McCarthy link. Considering the context in those cases, I’d say 80% seems low, actually.
Re: Iki ?
Let’s see…first the % of fights that go to the ground might in fact be over/under-estimated. Don’t get stuck on the numbers (80% 72% 42% whatever). Depending on the source and how the numbers get input, it is still a fact that a large portion of fights go to the ground. Even more so today than any other. With the popularity of BJJ, UFC, K1, WEC and the like, I believe it is even more relavent today than ever before.
Imho there is no 100% in self defense. So the hit them first mentality is not only arrogant but wrong minded. What IF you get hit first? Then what? What IF you get knocked to the ground, are mounted and the attacker is throwing thunder in your face? What if there are multiple attackers intent on taking you to the ground and boot-stomping you? (re:GMD, group monkey dance)
My opinion is that we train in the deficit for a reason, and to expand our ability to fight stand-up or ground is paramount in a complete system.Second, if you read the first words dealing with Darren and his credentials you’ll see that I said “I don’t discredit Darren or his system..”
Third, my point was that one should use just as much scutiny for the intructor as the system in general. (karate is a good MA…unless the instructor sucks)
I would hope that all that post here would agree that the things the general public are exposed to now compared to even twenty years ago has changed. The attackers are more sophisticated, more brazen, and have no respect or fear of law enforcement. It just seems to me that all self defense systems being taught today should reflect those changes.
Again this is my opinion and I didn’t come on here to disparage anyones credentials or system. JL
Re: Iki ?
Is that where those stats come from? No wonder it’s 80%. What do you expect people to go toe to toe with cops and cops square off also? Damn, I actually bought into that 80% crap but I kept thinking of all the fights I have seen and been in and I kept saying maybe 50%.
So whats the stats on multiple attackers if we count police usually come in packs!!!
Re: Iki ?
First, who said anything about being 100%? The “hit them first” mentality is neither arrogant or wrong-minded, and not only does it not exclude the litany of variables, the litany of variables is the MAIN reason for the “mentality”.
Think what you want, but if you only train for “deficit”, you’re going to need it. Just like if LEOs only train for retention, they’re going to need it.
If you’re not first, you’re last. Furthermore, if you’re not first, you better be able to fight (assuming you’re still conscious.) In either case, you better be emotionally tough, because if you are unable to control internal variables, there’s no way you can control external ones.
Re: Iki ?
I also think it’s funny that you state “we all know 80% of fights go to the ground”, like saying “grass is green”, then you say “don’t get stuck on the numbers”. Huh?
Re: Iki ?
i beleive in the strike first mentality. if at any point one feels that they or their loved ones are in danger, then you have every right to strike first. if im not mistaken, and LEO can correct me, if you reasonably feel that you are in imminent danger then that alone is grounds to defend yourself. i’d rather go into a confrontation from an offensive perspective than purely a defensive point. yes, by the nature of it it is defensive, but what i mean is basically the old saying ‘the best defense is a great offense’ (paraphrased) should be engrained when it comes to life or death situation. someone looks at me funny at a bar no im not gonna strike him in the eyes or go all out in a clinch, but if he approaches yelling and cursing and has threatening body language? im definetly not going to wait for him to strike, im going into a JKD straight blast and entering into a clinch and then let the elbows and kness take over. sadly, ive had to use this very same offensive-defense in real world. there was no deesclation possible with this drunk dude who thought he was a tough guy and had me backing into a corner.
Re: Iki ?
The % of ground fights pales in signficance next to the % that weapons are deployed during a fight. So when I see Krav Maga instructors having a love affair with Jiujitsu I am dismayed because it is much easier to learn how to avoid being taken to the ground than it is to learn how to become an expert on the ground. Additionally if you are training on the ground and you are not including weapons and other attackers as a constant part of your ground training, you are not really training for the ground.
The Krav Maga ground curriculum that is frequently taught in America is terrible. It is way too ring oriented. I don’t teach that curriculum at my school because I feel that it is bad bjj that lacks a specific methodology. So I worked with Nir Maman and learned what is taught to the IDF spec forces. It is simple, brutal and very effective. Ring techniques will get you killed in the street. If you think sport and he thinks combat he will kill you.
Re: Iki ?
What is taught to IDF special forces is not what I’m looking for when teaching the average suburban mom or dad that trains at my center in Charlotte, NC. Different rules of engagement, different contexts, different goal sets, different attack motivations and methods, different weapons, different mindsets, different terrains, different third parties, different apparel, different vehicles, different accessibility, different demands on the body, different expectations…
Re: Iki ?
quote Ryan:What is taught to IDF special forces is not what I’m looking for when teaching the average suburban mom or dad that trains at my center in Charlotte, NC. … different vehicles…You mean the IDF doesn’t use minivans? thumbsup
Re: Iki ?
My father taught me if someone bullies you get the first punch in no matter what. Worst case scenario he has to walk into school the next day with a black eye.
Kinda rings true.
I have found since then that striking first (when you cannot avoid the conflict) really discourages the attacker from proceeding (in most cases)……a lot depends on who might be around that he has to save face in front of…the more people he needs to impress the less likely you can defuse.
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